Natural Catalysts, with Reem Asil and Alison Coburn

So here's a big challenge: only 4.5% of staff in UK environmental charities identify as Global Majority, despite Global Majority people making up 18% of the UK working-age population. 

That gap is a signal that something deeper than recruitment is broken. To achieve diversity in the environment sector we need to go much, much further. We sit down with Alison Coburn from Common Purpose and Reem Asil, co-founder of Makani Cambridge, to talk about Natural Catalysts and why changing representation in environmental leadership means changing organisational culture, power and the unwritten rules people are expected to follow.

We trace how Natural Catalysts is co-designed, starting with research and listening to Global Majority leaders with lived experience of racialisation, then bringing senior leaders into the design so the responsibility for change does not fall on marginalised people alone. Along the way we unpack the practical blockers that keep the sector homogenous: informal entry routes like unpaid internships, role requirements that overvalue technical ecological credentials, and the reality that many jobs sit outside diverse urban centres.

We also get honest about what it feels like to be an environmental leader during a climate and biodiversity crisis, while carrying burnout, scarcity and constant pressure. Alison and Reem share why their programme is built to create connection and peer learning, using a trauma-informed, anti-oppressive approach that helps people unlearn “power-over” habits and practise shared power across teams and organisations.

Follow GoodGeist for more episodes on sustainability, communications and how creativity can help make the world a better place.

Transcript

Welcome To Goodgeist

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Goodgeist. A podcast series on sustainability. Hosted by Damla Eusler and Steve Connor. Brought to you by the DNS Network.

SPEAKER_02 0:22

Hello, hello everyone. You are listening to Good Guys, the message on sustainability, which is brought to you by the DNS Network, the global network of agencies dedicated to making the world a better place. This is Dando from Mira Agency Istanbul and This is Steve from Creative Concern in Manchester.

SPEAKER_01 0:39

This podcast series explores global sustainability issues, how they communicated, and what creativity can do to make positive change happen.

SPEAKER_02 0:47

So in this episode, we're going to talk to Alison Coburn, who heads up the environment program at the leadership development charity Common Purpose, and Ree Masil, the co-founder of McCani Cambridge, an organization that supports individuals and communities from across racialized and marginalized backgrounds to heal, thrive, and lead.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

And who, rather stupidly, Damler, I just asked, where are you? When the clue is in McCartney, Cambridge. I mean, come on. Anyway, so and Reims in Cambridge. So there you go. We've got that out of the way. We're talking today about their new joint program, Natural Catalysts, which brings together Global Majority Leaders and Senior Leaders to explore how how a shift to uh to explore and shift how leadership is accessed, practiced, and sustained in the environment sector, funded by the Esme Fairbone Foundation. So, Alison Ream, thank you so much for taking the time to jump on the podcast with Damo and myself.

SPEAKER_04 1:45

Thank you for having us.

SPEAKER_02 1:46

Yeah, it's fantastic to be here. So lovely to have you both on the podcast, and we'll dive into natural catalysts in

Meet Alison Coburn And Reem Masil

SPEAKER_02 1:55

just a moment. But before that, can we find out a little bit more about the two of you? I mean, what's the journey to your current roles being like, and what gets you out of bed every morning apart from a strong cup of tea or coffee?

SPEAKER_03 2:12

I can start if that's okay with you, Alison. Yeah, go for it, right? Yeah, I didn't have a conventional journey by any stretch of imagination. I started in the medical science academic world, pursued a PhD in immunology. I used to work as a university teacher for a few years, and then eventually I landed in the leadership world, working actually with Common Purpose. In between, I had, you know, I did a lot of activism in human rights activism, citizen journalism, peace building, community cohesion. And then that led me to the leadership development world and a decade ago, and I stayed there ever since. More recently, like two years ago, co-founded Makani Cambridge. Makani in Arabic means my place. And it is, you know, an attempt to a place-based, equitable approach to bringing people together and to building communities and empowering communities.

SPEAKER_04 3:17

And um, I started my journey in the arts, then I went to the BBC working in radio, so it's very nice to be on a podcast. And then I was one of the founding team of Common Purpose. We started in the UK and then I ran Common Purpose internationally. And a few years ago, I started thinking very hard about what leaders needed to do to tackle the environmental crisis and what common purpose could do to help those leaders to be more impactful. And that's where I met Reen because we worked on a program together in Common Purpose. And getting more and more into the story of environment leadership and increasingly UK environment leadership led us to this point and led us to get together to run this program.

SPEAKER_01 4:10

Brilliant. So you can see there, Tamler. A, obviously, I'm terrified because Alan actually is a professional from with a radio background. So we should feel very humble right now. But she wish see what she did there. She's such a pro. She lined up the next question. Like, and that's what led us to. That is how you do it. We should learn from Alison immediately.

SPEAKER_04 4:32

I think so.

SPEAKER_01 4:34

So

Co-Designing Natural Catalysts

SPEAKER_01 4:35

let's move on to Natural Catalysts, which is a great name, by the way, as a branding person. I love the name. Um I also love a bit of co-design, and that's very much been the work that you've been undertaking over the last 12 months, isn't it? So tell us how you've co-designed this program of change.

SPEAKER_04 4:52

Well, maybe shall I kick off, Reem, and then you can pick up. Sure. I mean, the the initial sort of impetus for the co-design came from Esme Fairband Foundation, who were concerned about the lack of diversity in the sector and wanted to think about ways in which they could do that, but they only wanted to do that with the views of global majority people in the sector because it made sense to really understand what their experience was. And so I'll last let Reen talk more about the actual co-design process. But essentially, we we we talked to people from the global majority in the sector. And because of what we learned, we ended up also talking to senior leaders in the sector about their perspective. So over to you, Reem, and say a bit more about that process.

SPEAKER_03 5:43

Thank you, Alison. Maybe worthwhile uh mentioning that we started with literature review and desktop research, scanned everything that has been done. Hence, I think uh you saw the stats, uh Steve, that led, you know, uh Esme to uh to put a call for uh you know to tender for to tackle this question of racial representation and senior leadership in the environment sector. So we started with that, and with everything that we learned from the research, a few questions started emerging for us. So on that, we built our understanding, we continue to build our understanding with some focus groups as well, with an open call to leaders in the sector to come and discuss the questions that started emerging for us to enable us to understand more what we are actually grappling with at the heart of the question of the representation and senior leadership positions in the sector. And the cultural challenges started emerging really strongly. There's you know, the systemic uh structural barriers that have been long documented and very well documented and discussed. A lot of initiatives and solutions, if you will, were geared towards building a pipeline of talents into the sector. However, it was very clear that the gap persisted. People are coming into the sector, either they get stuck in mid-management or they leave the sector. And then later on, after building their leadership and their career portfolio, they come back to the sector at a very, very later stage after getting achieving seniority elsewhere. And it turned out from what we heard that the problem is actually in part in big part of it, is the organizational culture and everything, the unwritten rules, if you will, in the in the in the sector. So we brought people from across the sector, leaders with lived experience of racialization in the UK. And from the get-go, we uh aimed to actually center their lived experience and the wisdom of their lived experience. And it was truly, you know, everything that emerged emerged from their voices. So they told us, you know, where the challenges sat, how organizational life was experienced, how the sector was experienced, and uh also the fact that they covered a wide range of ages as well and background helped diversify our understanding. So we took all of that afterwards and come together, you know, McKani and come on purpose. And it became clear to us at that point that another actually co-design process is needed. Because the first thing that we heard is that uh a conventional leadership program is not the answer. It needed to be something ecosystemic, you know, with an ecosystem approach. And then that led us to the second co-design where we brought senior leaders from the sector together to try and understand and co-create together the potential way forward, which then we landed on natural capitalists.

SPEAKER_02 8:58

Oh my god, Ream, I really want to ask a million questions to you. And I have so many things on my mind, like identified and unidentified biases, and so much more, because I have been into those programs a lot. And I know Steve knows what I want to say a lot, but I have to keep myself in check so that we can make a proper program. You are addressing an important issue with this program, aren't you? I mean, you cite a recent report from 2024 that revealed that only 4.5% of staff in UK environmental charities identify as global majority compared with 18%

Why Diversity Stalls In Environment Roles

SPEAKER_02 9:40

of the working age population, a huge inequity in representation. So, what lies behind this? I mean, and what are the implications of this inequity?

SPEAKER_04 9:53

I mean, just from maybe I can say a bit about the what lies behind it, I think there's a number of different things. One is the perception of the sector that it's the people who go into it, you know, and not from global majority. And a lot of it is in rural locations, which there are fewer global majority people there. But there are quite a lot of structural barriers to entry because, for example, to get into the sector very often, you know, you do an informal internship or something, you know, and and you have a family who can support you. I think this applies to working class people as well. You know, you have a family who can support you, that's how you get your foot in the door. And there's also a great emphasis on technical, ecological knowledge, and sometimes beyond what's really required for a role, you know, that you get the technical respect. Like if you're an ecologist, then that's fine, even if you're not doing an ecologist's role. So those are some of the things, and Reem, I don't know whether you want to add to that, but those are some of the things that certainly even before this, I began to see in the sector.

SPEAKER_03 11:05

Yeah, definitely. And you know, I had alluded to the also organizational like cultural barriers. So not only is the sector not seen by the global majority communities as something for them, you know. Once people are there as well, there isn't like enough recognition of the wisdom that they bring, their lived experience, their understanding of the challenges that marginalized, you know, racialized communities face in the UK as well. It has been done in a very so far, you know, what we heard as well. There's that tendency of centering the white, you know, mainstream, Eurocentric understanding of the climate challenges, you know, and as we know, the climate challenge in you know as uh as a whole includes in it racial also justice, uh migration justice, and a lot, a lot of things entangled the intersectionality of these challenges. And also, you know, organizational life is very in the sector, and it's worthwhile mentioning. It emerged from the literature as well. The environmental sector is is the second least diverse sector in the UK after uh, I think agriculture, farming, farming, farming and agriculture agriculture, which is you know mind-boggling in a way, because on one hand, it's one of the most progressive, you know, sectors, and still those patterns are persisting. So, yeah, that's why it needed, you know, it needed actually the change to happen at multiple levels at once, hence the natural catalyst, you know, and the ecosystem approach. This is not a problem that it became very clear that can be solved by actually building or equipping, if you will, the leadership of racialized people in the UK, but rather it needs a systemic approach that tackles all layers of organizational structures and systems, you know, in the sector.

SPEAKER_01 13:12

And it well, I think it's fascinating because I think it becomes so circular as well, doesn't it, Reem? So if you if you don't have leadership, you don't have visibility of global majority of people in NGOs working on environment, then people simply won't want to go into that sector. So it's it becomes self-reinforcing, it's like a doom spiral, really, for diversity. So you're gonna so obviously you're gonna fix all this. Well done, you two. Uh so tell us what the natural uh I was about to say natural capitalists playbook. I would almost slipped. Well, that would have been terrible.

SPEAKER_02 13:49

Oh that's a oxymoron, you know? That's an oxymoron.

SPEAKER_01 13:56

What can you imagine? There is actually a book called Natural Capitalism that I can recommend to everybody because it's very interesting, but that's not the point. Natural Capitalists, what's the playbook look like? What's the program going to achieve? What do the next few years look like?

How The Programme Works In Practice

SPEAKER_01 14:10

And and I think when we go out, there's still a window for people to apply. So so yeah, tell us tell us tell us a little bit more about the program itself.

SPEAKER_04 14:19

Do you want to call go first, Alison? Okay. So the program is for I know you've said it, but just to reinforce it, it's for global majority leaders and senior leaders in the sector. So, you know, it isn't a program only for global majority leaders. That's the point, in a way, that one of the things that Avreen said, you know, we need people at different levels in the sector to start getting grappling with this challenge. And it it is a challenge, and people know that. And actually, there's loads of people in the sector who are motivated to try and do something about it. But I think through our conversations, it also became clear some of them didn't really know what to do. So this is an attempt to start start tackling that. So there are different tracks in the program. So the the participants will have different experiences for some of the time. So there's a senior leader track and a global majority track, and then there are combined, there's a crime track where they work together because we also wanted them to learn from each other. And alongside the leadership development part of this program, because there are specific things we want to help people to develop. We also wanted to have peer learning and learning between the different tracks and groups of people, because I think there's a lot of richness there. And if we can create the right environment to have more honest, open conversation, because these conversations can also get very fraught, then we have an opportunity to maybe shift some things. Reem, do you want to say much more about that? There's quite a lot to say about how the program works.

SPEAKER_03 15:57

So there is, there is, and I highly encourage people to check out the website. You know, I would love to hear people's feedback. We've been doing this on the approach and different contents. Maybe the first thing to mention is the tagline of the program. It's called Natural Catalyst Reimagining Leadership in the Environment Sector. And that says it all. You know, this program is an attempt and an invitation to reimagine the sector altogether, you know, at all levels. So it will have like an educational component, but also it will center peer learning, it will build relationships, it will build networks. The different components are crafted in a way to enable like a cohort of organizations to act together. So we are moving towards hopefully collective response to the to the challenge rather than organizations trying to solve the problem in silos. So that's to me, that's at the heart of Natural Catalyst. It's actually enabling that collective, you know, collective action taking together by enabling people at all levels in the organization. So each organization, it is a program for organizations, not for individuals, as Alison said. And each participating organization will get to engage people at three levels or three points: someone in decision-making positions, senior leaders, a global majority, you know, leader in mid-management position, and someone from HR and EDI department if they have. So all these people get to actually spend time together, explore the current situation, the current, you know, playing field, if you will, and decide together how they want to change that and move forward.

SPEAKER_04 17:52

And it's worth saying, you know, it's a pilot, but we see this as a long-term thing. We want to make it a long-term thing. And the idea of this cohort, you know, this ecosystem, people working together, is also practical because there are a lot of small NGOs in the sector, you know, who can't really afford to have their own DEI or whatever department. But by bringing people together, we have the opportunity to share resources and experience and make it easier for the small organizations. So, you know, we want the sector to think about how they can work together on this issue. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 18:28

I think that's brilliant, Ellison. And I also think that when we look at the NGO sector and an environmental NGO sector also, and I I'll also count myself as one of them, it should be more open, more collective, because Reem, you put a big emphasis on collectivism, but in reality, sometimes it's not. So the program is first maybe, maybe just my thought on it, but about getting rid of our own delusions about what we do, or our own misshaped or misguided thoughts on the effects of our actions. So, where I'm gonna come is you mentioned the pilot, and this program is examining leadership roles, power structures, and how these dynamics shape the work of an environmental NGO. Could maybe Alison you or Ream, you

Power Dynamics And Unlearning Leadership

SPEAKER_02 19:30

want to explain a little bit more about those dynamics? I mean, what you have discovered in putting the program together and how they will be the focus of participants working together. What are our delusions? Wanna go for that ream?

SPEAKER_03 19:47

Yeah. Oh, what a question, Damla. I could I personally could spend like days and talking and writing about this. I do write about power. Yeah, I mean, there's because of how the sector has been operating and has been built so far, that reimagining of new realities and new possibilities start with unlearning, you know, unlearning the current, still sometimes hegemonic, still sometimes power-over dynamics that dictate, you know, organizational life and the wider sector dynamic. Whether it is with how organizations and teams are internally led, whether it is how partnerships are built across the sector, how time and resources are mobilized either internally within organizations or again across the sector between organizations. The list goes on and on and on, you know, and hence, you know, when we said in natural catalysts, there will be like educational components where uh we will focus on understanding power, understanding power structures to be able actually to reimagine and to change and to decide what other possibilities you know might be there for leaders. Understanding also lived experience because it's becoming a buzzword over the last few years. And I had written before that, you know, everyone has a lived experience, but we are made to think that some people have lived experience, some people don't. The question is actually lived experience of what some of us have lived experience of power, of privilege, others have lived experience of marginalization, oppression, and all of us will have a mixture of both in different degrees, you know, and in varying like levels. And so enabling like a space that is safe to explore, you know, for people to come together to understand, you know, where they sit, how actually they absorb power, how they manifest power, and how they share power ultimately, you know, that's the the the

SPEAKER_01 22:00

ultimate question and enable that learning to be co-created and to be also uh co-practised you know throughout the journey hopefully maybe I mean that's a big what Ream is a big framing remote and maybe just to say in a very practical sense it isn't just for the NGO sector is for the public sector and private sector as well if they want to be part of it you know and we we do expect some public sector applicants because it's the whole sector we're thinking about well likes that as as with my amazing co-host Amler I've got a million questions as well because uh the whole issue but I find this so fascinating that there is a mindset in the environmental sector and it you're right allison it spans there's incredibly passionate people working on environmental issues in the public sector as well and we we ignore that we think it's all NGOs but I know people working as directors of environment some really big and public sector organizations who genuinely get out of bed in the morning wanting to save the world and what I find really interesting and this goes a little bit beyond the culture and the power dynamics ring to the kind of psychology of people working in this sector which

Burnout, Safety And Trauma-Informed Change

SPEAKER_01 23:20

I think is so interesting. And I count myself as one where you can have this kind of bubble around you where because you are thinking you're fighting the good fight you maybe don't recognize the flaws that you have and that you need to change and and as a result can be even more hyper defensive when some of those realities are reassessed that you're starting to plug into. And then I think there is a and I I'd love for you two to this almost a final question and maybe this is an even bigger question. My God we need three hours but the the the the question of that psychology of leadership particularly I think is fascinating because you you're you're sitting at an intersection of environmental leadership during a biodiversity and climate crisis but then looking at the framing of global majority populations at a time when the world is at war and this this is not a calm space to be a leader in. It's incredibly challenging isn't it and then as if that wasn't enough of a layer cake of madness already you then got the injustice built into global inequity around the climate crisis for example where all of us white people who are the 1% have created a crisis that will impact global majority populations the worst.

SPEAKER_04 24:37

So these are the challenges you're having how do you grapple grapple with that how do you encapsulate those challenges for leaders in this space I mean maybe I can start with that I mean I think one of the things that leaders are experiencing in this space whoever they are and whatever level they're at is the pressure and getting up every morning knowing the facts and still carrying on and one of the things that I've seen and we've seen through this program is that we need much more support for people to you know and and part one of the antidotes to despair is community you know that bringing people together bringing like minded people together having spaces where some of these things can be discussed is hugely important. So I would say that's one of the issues for me and I think it's particularly true you know for people in global minority community in in the organ in the sector. And the other one for me and I would say this because I come from common purpose which is all about cross-sector working and working with people from different backgrounds is I think the ability to reach beyond the sector and to work with people from other fields and other worlds is critical because the transformation is only going to happen you know by these very multi-sector initiatives and partnerships.

SPEAKER_03 26:01

It's the only way to transform the way we currently do things yeah absolutely I couldn't agree more and maybe the last thing to uh to mention is there is no denying that there is a lot of burnout going out at the you know at the going on at the moment competition scarcity division you know the backdrop of everything that is going on globally that people in the environment sector but also in other sectors exist and operate against is is draining you know and we took all of that into consideration while building natural catalysts we don't claim to have all the answers however what we can say is natural catalysts built in a trauma informed anti-oppressive way to help people to come together and be as safe as possible to explore you know and I'm gonna quote one of my favorite people when it comes to trauma understanding Gabor Mate he says like psychological safety is not the absence of threat but is the presence of connection and it is that connection that we are trying to enable through natural catalyst so people feel safe enough to heal together.

SPEAKER_02 27:22

And as we know also in the trauma you know healing world no one can heal on their own we need other people to heal you know to heal our future to heal our sector to heal our planet and to heal our heal ourselves and natural catalyst is our small attempt to try and do something in this direction that small attempt and that perception is actually proposes to change one of the most historical phrases in the world I mean how was it homo homini lupus man is a wolf to the other man but you are and we are all proposing to change it as homo homini salva we are others

What Makes Us Smile And Closing

SPEAKER_02 28:10

salvation and safety I love it I really love it. So I really want to talk to you about a lot of things but we have to finish this episode and make sure we make another episode right Steve our final question our network is ironically called do not smile because we need to make sustainability a subject that brings happiness into the world so what object place or person always makes you both smile Alison you go first wild creatures doing their thing so whether it's the urban fox that lives in my garden or the birds on the bird feeder or I'd be very privileged to see elephants in the wild in Africa.

SPEAKER_03 28:56

You know I like wild creatures doing their own thing yeah I'm not gonna veer a lot from that and I realize I didn't answer your question Damla what gets me out of the bed in the morning and it is feeding my pets because they come and they make sure to wake them up if I'm late to their breakfast you know and it's they absolutely make me smile. I have a dog and a cat and just watching them being and existing you know being themselves and being in harmony you know with the nature around them with the people around them yeah definitely makes me smile.

SPEAKER_02 29:35

Beautiful answers in one I know I'm loving it.

SPEAKER_01 29:39

I'm absolutely loving it I'm gonna go and go on to YouTube and watch some urban raccoons trashing dust bins which is possibly my favorite thing for sure. Reem I've got one of those cats that sits by the I'm a reluctant cat owner. Well so my wife rescued some cats and they they they were only supposed to be with us for a few months and obviously two years on they're still here and and she sits by the bed every morning not my wife doesn't get this she sits by the bed every morning and like 4 a.m and then a paw comes up and it's yeah so much joy you know Steve I I uh whoever you know has been in a facilitation uh space with me will have heard me saying I have two co-facilitators a dog and a cat because they like to make appearances sometimes they didn't a cat is here but she decided not to appear usually she'd be parading you'd get a cat drive by yeah yeah yeah excellent well listen and we've run over terribly that's and and we also included some Latin towards the end of the podcast which I think we're all feeling very pleased about so it's been one of those days everybody what a wonderful insight into natural catalysts and and it'll be a really exciting programme obviously you're just starting so we'll talk again about it at some point I'm sure and maybe maybe some of the participants might want to come on and talk about how it's been that would be really lovely.

SPEAKER_02 30:59

But Damla I think we'd better wrap this up yes I do too so thanks to everyone who has listened to our Budgeist podcast brought to you by the Do Not Smile Network of Agencies.

SPEAKER_01 31:10

And make sure you listen to future episodes where we'll try and stay to time a little bit better and talk to more amazing people about how you can work together to create a more sustainable future so Reem Alison Damler see you soon.

SPEAKER_00 31:21

Bye you're goodgeist a podcast series on sustainability hosted by Damler Auzler and Steve Connor brought to you by the DNS network