A Gardener as a Cultural Actor, with Jacques Soignon

A greener city is not just about planting more trees. It is about making nature easy to reach, hard to ignore, and emotionally meaningful in everyday life. 

In this episode we chat to ecologist and horticulturalist Jacques Sognon, former director of Green Spaces and Environment for the City of Nantes and vice president of France’s Conservatoire for Special Plant Collections.

We explore how Nantes evolved from “a city of a hundred gardens” into “the city in the garden”, building a connected network of parks and routes through a major green master plan. Jacques shares why continuity, patient delivery, and opening up connections between green spaces can shift a whole city’s identity, and how public participation grows when green infrastructure feels like a shared cultural project.

We also get practical with the biophilic cities 3-30-300 rule, tree canopy cover targets, and the case for cutting back unnecessary hard surfaces. From heatwaves to the hidden lessons a snowfall can reveal, we talk climate adaptation, urban biodiversity, and nature-based solutions that improve health, comfort, and everyday movement.

Listen in to our story of the city in the garden! 

Follow GoodGeist for more episodes on sustainability, communications and how creativity can help make the world a better place.

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

0:02

Good guys. A podcast series on sustainability. Hosted by Damla Eusler and Steve Connor. Brought to you by the DNS Network. Hello, hello everyone. You are listening to Good Guys, the message on sustainability, which is brought to you by the DNS Network, the global network of agencies dedicated to making the world a better place. This is Damla from Mira Agency Istanbul and. This is Steve from Creative Constern in Manchester. This podcast series explores global sustainability issues, how they're communicating what creativity can do to make positive change happen. So in this episode, we're going to talk to the amazing ecologist and horticulturalist Jacques Sognon, who is the vice president of France's Conservatoire for Special Plant Collections, and who for many years was the director of Green Spaces and Environment for the City of Nantes. Excellent. So I need to get there, Damler. Jacques is shortly to be taking part in the Northern Flower House Assembly here in the UK, organized by our recent podcast guest, Richard and Poly. He generously shares his knowledge and experience through lectures and presentations. And as a last bit of background before we jump over to Jacques, was trained as a horticulturist at the Versailles School of Horticulture. So, Jacques, thanks so much for taking the time to jump on the podcast with Damler and myself. Nice to see you. Perfect. Oh, Jacques, we're really excited to have you on the podcast.

A Life Shaped By Botany

1:40

But first of all, tell us about your journey through the world of plants and green spaces. Okay, so engaged in the project around landscaping and plants a long time ago, invested in a large city in the west side of France. The name is Nantes. I was the green manager of all this team during uh 35 years, and now this city is considered in France as one of the best places for plants greenings, and that's now one of the green capital in Europe. Amazing. And I have a question. How did you become so in love with green spaces and plants? What was your first moment that you thought that you were working you were gonna work for green spaces for your life? The beginning of that? The beginning. The really beginning. The first act when I was uh a young guy, and just going through the garden of the botanical garden of Nantes and discovering new plants and saying and meeting some people, some botanists, and say that should be my work for the future. That's what I do, really. So it was very early, and it was a passion. Now I can share during this long period in Nantes, and now following with my participation in the association, which is the French plant heritage, really. And with that, it's another new opportunity for me to share, to promote, and to realize some project around plants, landscaping, and wild nature too.

Nantes Green Vision And Green Star

3:26

Amazing. So, Jacques, you've in one of your presentations that I've seen, and you've talked about the evolution of Nantes from the city of a hundred gardens, I think, to becoming the city in the garden. And increasingly you said Nantes is being recognized as a leading city in this space and as a green capital, and won the Grand Prix de l'Arre, I think, in 2025, and the International Green Space Prize in 2025. So tell us what uh what is the dream, Larette, that Nantes has been chasing as a city? How did you and how did you help shape this mission for the city? Step by step, really, because uh long time ago I worked with a previous director and in this steep cities, there is a good continuity of action from one man to another man now, and in this way, the project to green more, to be more active around greening was engaged a long time ago before me. But really, as a we got good enhancement of that every year, and now for the city it's uh 130 gardens, was that a lot? And the project was to, and my at the beginning of my work, it was around uh half of that, so it's a lot of parks and gardens realized in this period, but also now it's a master plan of a big size engage. Now, the name is the Green Star, which is a project which uh which we want to connect all these parks and gardens, opening the gates to be uh linked this once by once, and now this big drama is almost finished, and it's a good way now to to to go in the city, to cross the city, to do some moving from one piece to the other piece. So the project in Zingage 2 that's not really finished, but in the the the most biggest part is already realized. Wow, that's

Nature Emotion And Public Culture

5:34

great. And uh I know that in one of your recent presentations, you explored the fascination that people have for plants and animals, and how there is a strong emotional connection we all have for nature. Let's talk about this a little bit more. Can you expand this idea? How does this intersect with the idea of creating more and better green space across a city? Really, what we think and what we do is to say that people want when they go in our parks in garden and when they go through greening in the city, what they want to be connected, it's a big living show. That's a good way to summer what we what we do right now and before. And uh that's very important because the gardener is not only somebody in charge of greening the areas, but is really an actor important of the cultural project of the city. So this big connection was uh a good way to meet a large audience and to create a good participation with the public. That's a really big characteristic of what we do a long time ago. And with this connection, it's a really incredible network of people engaged around different actions of greening your city with big and large events promoted with very interesting artists, some of them integrated the city itself. So exciting. I and I I have to admit, I am desperate to get to Nantes and explore your green spaces, Jacques. I am we have a project in Manchester to connect people with green space in a very similar way. And I know I have to get to Nantes, otherwise, I will not be educated in this space

The 3-30-300 Biophilic Rule

7:31

at all. So the other thing I wanted to ask you about is I have to admit, we've been given some advice and that's been prepped a little bit by Polly at Northern Flowerhouse. And she shared a recent keynote lecture of yours, and in it you talked about that biophilic cities rule of 330-300 and the idea of 33300, which I absolutely love. But I wonder whether for our listeners you could explain this 330-300 rule. What is it and how does it work? Yes, uh, that's uh now some these uh numbers are now well, not in some cities in Europe. It's a good uh axis to enhance uh uh the the proposal of greening in the city, and uh what through that it's uh to have the possibility to get some green uh every day, very close from every home. And now we think that that's not possible to have a real life if you have not this possibility to be connected to a park at 300 meters with a tree close from your home and from your next uh next trip to go just to the market and so on. Okay, so that's this number is now to have a real very, very dense trauma about green and trees in the city. So this is a charter engaged now officially, and something we are really realizing in the very, very uh next years. And just quickly, Dan, I have to say the 330-300 rule, I love it because I'm using it in Manchester because I'm absolutely on a mission because our the 30 is 30%, isn't it, Jacques? So the the the canopy cover for the city, so that's how much of land area is covered by trees. And our target, our objective in Manchester is only 19%. It's pathetic. We need 30%. That's very different. I had the pleasure to to visit some time ago Liverpool and Manchester, and I can feel that there is great possibility for the future for the city too, on the same way.

Fewer Cars More Living Streets

9:49

Something very interesting to say is also that the the percent of of mineral in your city is now too high, really. And in the next future, you will change that for two big reasons: ecological reason and also economical reasons. Because all the rubber we have done during years and years in our city will be used very differently in the very next year, because of the two parameters. And really, you'll get you'll decide soon, everywhere in the world, that you'll put this rubber only like a medical program, only where you need it really, not everywhere around and and thinking and park can go everywhere. That's what I think about the future of our big city. We are more and more, which are more and more put, for example, today. Okay, we lost okay, perfect. Damla. Well, I was just thinking about what you said. I mean, it was a beautiful phrase, and I think I would love to put it in the title. A gardener, gardener is a cultural actor. So Nantes is a very cultural city as well as a green oasis, and there is a lovely playfulness and sense of design in some of some of the green spaces that you've delivered. Can you tell us a bit more about how you can mix ecology with art and culture in cities? Really, that was one of the keys of the success to be connected with the people who can give us some new ideas and to be creative and get some news in different spaces. The botanical garden was a very good example for that because with in this way we we pass from 1 million visitors in each year to 2 million.5 million in only six years. So for that, we do a lot of moving in the big garden, which is now the main attraction in the city, even in the west side of France, with these 2 million point five people. And for that, one of the best ways was sure to work every year with new artists to realize the projects in connection with public, and different examples remain of that. And with that, this garden is also a moment of fun, which is very important too. And we liked also to do storytelling with people, with public. That's also a lovely way to be connected with the people. So we are the city of Jules Verne at the basis, but now we are going on with some artists like Francois de La Rosière and Pierre Aurifis, the famous creator of the machine de Lille, the big great elephant, for example. And with all these people and the other one, that is possible, that was possible too, to do some projects of storytelling and to create emotion for people. That's what they want. Emotion, good emotion, sure, but really a way which will be used everywhere. I think that's on the same way. I love it. I love it. Um, so let's talk, Michael, about making more space for nature in cities. Uh, because there are so many competing agendas in a city, aren't there? So there's housing, commerce, and business, culture, services, transport and mass transit, and cars, les voitures. How do we create more space for nature in our cities? What how does nature become a more central feature of our master planning in urban design? It sounds like you've managed to succeed on that in Nantes. How do we do that? How do we make more space for nature? I think one of the first ways is to have uh a good uh analysis of what we of the of the moving in the city of any transport program. The program transport was very important. For example, the tramway. The tramway is now very well spread all over the city and the 24 communes around. So that is the first possibility to transfer and also the cycle pass too. Okay, so for example, for me, the cycle, the cycling is every day my best way to cross the city. Sure, that's less parking, sure, that's less way for the car, but we do so much for that. And the cars never want to be on the sun along the river, what all the big cities do, and right now they tremend some of that. These parts are the first priority for politicians for me and for the people themselves to say what are the best ways for that? And we are different examples of parkings, for example, becoming hotspot of diversities, but also hotspot for people living and for youth, for example. So during this uh exhibit exhibition in Liverpool, I can show you some pictures of that. That sounds great. But do you think I wonder I just to follow up, Damler, just quickly on that. I wonder whether in in our city, in the city I know best, Manchester, we have I think a in the center of the city, I think 8% of the city is for parking cars. And it's like it's a crazy waste of of space. And I wonder whether more cities need strategy to use basically measures to create sustainable transport to get cars out and and recreate those spaces as parks, even small little parks, the size of a car parking space. Do you think more cities should be doing that? Just creating more space, getting rid of car parks and and creating gardens where they are. Sorry. Yeah, no, that's okay. Yeah, I wonder whether we need uh more gardens and fewer cars. Sure, sure. Uh the that's what we can experiment with success. At the beginning, it was just events, and we try that. We try some solutions. And doing that, we got the approbation of a large, large audience. So that's in this way we can go step by step and say, we should plan, for example, uh go met station everywhere in the city in the center. Oh promise is just to do some try. But this go match station, for example, remains all the and what we was only for for tests is now really structuring the city. So uh the action through event was a good way for that. Now it's quite different because the conscientious of public and and and politics who drive the city are very concerned about that. That's why now we can engage a real program about three certain, for example, 300. And and this way now it's quite systematic. But uh, sure for that, there is a large possibility for that every day, every day. New greening, new new plants, planting in real earth, also that we have a big problem about uh touching the the the ground itself. So now this program also is engaged, and sometimes, sure, it's less possibility for cars, more for public who can uh stay, who can just have a rest, but also to be transported on foot and with bike and so on. Okay, so that's really the the basis of what arrived in in this city, sure. Brilliant. And sorry, Damler, I have one more if you don't mind. Is that okay? Because

Heat Snow And Climate Clues

17:47

I just thought of it. I just well, because Jacques, when we started the pub, we were starting the podcast for our listeners' benefit. Jacques was saying how crazy hot it is, really hot it is in Nantes. And here in the UK, we we have just had all these record temperatures, yeah, it's crazy hot. The next Mediterranean place is now UK should for the next year. But very, very hot. But so we I did I for years, yeah. Just remember too for another thing. What's interesting, we have we don't got so much snow, but during the last snow in North, every 10 or 20 years, I can see the picture from the the sky. And what I say, and what you can see is that just what is real used by car is but so much that's very easy just after snow to see that, and you can discover what is possible to green. So I engaged you to see what happened for the next snow in Britain. I hope that should be for soon for you, sure, not only hot temperature, but it's a good way to think okay, maybe there is something to move, and we are we can see like that what is really the necessity, so absolutely necessity of mineral in the city. But weasel. Yes, it's you're gonna get accustomed to Mediterranean traditions, Steve. Uh well, I mean in that case, I need to go and have a sleek immediately. Yeah, that's right. Okay, never

Lessons From Other Green Cities

19:19

mind. I'm just collecting it, but almost our last question, and we have to ask this. You're sharing your experience with other actors around the world and inspiring other cities to follow that lead. But which cities across the world are embracing nature in an innovative way, an exciting way, do you think? Something important too is to say that now landscape designers are really important people to structure the city of tomorrow. So that's the way we do for greening the city. So now you have different teams transforming the city. That way is used also in different cities in in France, for example, sure. So if you go in Reims, if you go in Nice, if you go even in Paris sometimes, you can find this now, this meaning about transforming with landscape designer. So that's a good way, sure. But not only in France, you can feel that also. I was very recently in Barcelona, you know the master plant, and it's quite interesting about to say just selecting uh one street every five streets to be to be different and green. So that's a good example to to compare and to be visited and discovered too. So uh the greening is everywhere, even in Germany, even in in Sweden, and so on. Okay, so I can give you a lot of possibility to discover some greening. So the the way is okay, and sure sure in UK. I I have to discover right now. Exactly. Well, we have in a couple of weeks, you'll get your chance, Jacques. Um I I actually do wonder. We almost we have one last question, but is there a city that has surprised you in terms of its green spaces? Is there one that you think I didn't expect it to be as green as that? Any anyone that stands out? I would say in France, oh uh in the entire world, potentially. In in France, sure, in the west side and France, different cities are the same kind of project. So the next city from Nantes, just after is Angers, for example, which is very well known also for the same strategy or almost the same strategy, though you can consider in west side of France, even now in Rennes, in the north is is transforming the city, La Roche-Orion, which transforms also a place uh very, very mineral to be now in a credible uh jungle. So there is very a lot of projects all around in the west side of France. Not only west island plants, you can find the same thing. Uh now I should say in a lot of places, even in cities which decided, which decided recently to plant a lot of trees. So you have a problem of one million trees, for example, in Bordeaux. You have you have Nice which transforms a very big project in the center of Nice. I just discovered recently. So everywhere now I can think that the the the transformation you can see them in and that's my proposal for you when you in in in our country. Okay. Ah well, I have to admit, we are my family and I, we are Francophiles, so we come to France almost every year. So I will make sure we get to some of these cities. Jacques, we have yeah, I know I can't wait. Can't wait. I love it in France.

The Place That Makes Him Smile

22:51

So we have our last question for you, which is this our network of agencies that create this podcast, we are called, this is very British humor, so apologies. We're called Do Not Smile, ironically, because we think we need to make sustainability a subject that brings happiness into the world. So the question for you, Jacques, is what object, place, or person always makes you smile? Uh there is so much possibility for that, but I like also to present a project of one man in my city in the center of the city where the name is Evor. We realized a jungle, internal jungle. This man alone with uh he just rent a flat ear, transformed absolutely a very ugly place, which is uh just a core of concrete, and now it's a good, good place just to see a jungle. So we just realized the platform to for the public to discover that private place, and really now it's almost 100,000 people who go just to the steps to say, Oh, a very good shoot of green in the center of the city. So that's the kind of place where you can think, okay, what we do is very important for the people, and one man alone can do that. This man is the name is Evo, for example. Though I can such would be the the a good possibility for you to oh excellent. That's definitely gonna make you smile. Well, a damlet, that reminds me. We're gonna have to wrap it up. That reminds me of Jason, our cloud, our cloud gardener. We had we have a movement here in the UK at the moment, Jacques, for gardening on balconies and creating these very amazing gardens and uh a national competition called the Sky Gardening Challenge, which is all about that. Excellent, Antonisia to you. I know it's really good for it. Hey, listen, we're gonna have to wrap it up. I've loved talking about green space. Damler, we have to get to Nantes. True. Yes, we do. I can tell Sidier's in Paris we need our next meeting in Nantes, not in Paris. I think that's essential. Maybe you should wrap us up, Damler. That's been wonderful. I have to. That's why the butt came. Well, I have to wrap you up.

Farewell And Next Episodes

25:05

So thanks to everyone who has listened to our goodgeist podcast brought to you by the Do Not Smile Network of Agencies. And make sure you listen to future episodes where we'll be talking to more amazing people about how we can all work together to create a more sustainable future. So, Damla, Jacques, see you soon. Bye. Bye-bye. Electronic economic. Goodgeist. A podcast series on sustainability. Hosted by Damla Eusler and Steve Connor. Brought to you by the DNS Network.