Nature Is Growth, with Anusha Shah

Nature is infrastructure, and we keep paying the price for forgetting it. In this episode we’re joined by Professor Anusha Shah of Plan for Earth, as she launches the Nature Is Growth campaign, a rallying cry for the built environment, to stop treating nature as a constraint and start treating it as an engine of climate resilience, public health and long-term prosperity.

We get practical about what changes minds: measurement, money and proof. Why do we fund highways without debate, yet hesitate to fund wetlands, trees and healthy catchments that reduce flood risk and cool cities? We talk natural capital accounting, biodiversity net gain and the Dasgupta Review, plus the need for economic models that go beyond GDP and take ecological tipping points seriously. Just as importantly, we explore how evidence and stories must travel together if policymakers, investors and industry leaders are going to act at speed.

Then Anusha helps us  tour the places already showing what nature-positive infrastructure looks like at scale: Singapore’s shift to a “city in nature”, Rotterdam’s climate-adaptive water squares, Scandinavian parks designed for extreme rainfall, and the UK’s Eden Project as proof that regeneration can drive jobs and tourism. 

It's a world tour exploring how #NatureIsGrowth so please do have a listen! 

Follow GoodGeist for more episodes on sustainability, communications and how creativity can help make the world a better place.

Transcript

Welcome And The Big Idea

SPEAKER_03 0:02

Good geist. A podcast series on sustainability. Hosted by Damla Eusler and Steve Connor. Brought to you by the DNS Network.

SPEAKER_01 0:22

Hello, hello everyone. You are listening to Good Guys, the message on sustainability, which is brought to you by the DNS Network, the global network of agencies dedicated to making the world a better place. This is Damlo from Mira Agency Istanbul and Steve from Creative Concern in Manchester.

SPEAKER_02 0:40

This podcast series explores global sustainability issues, how they're communicated, and what creativity can do to make positive change happen.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

So in this episode, we're going to talk again to our podcast friend, Professor Anusha Shah for of Plan for Earth, who this week is launching a nature is growth campaign through the Build Environment, Climate and Nature Program that she chairs.

SPEAKER_02 1:05

And as a quick reminder, Anusha is a past president of the UK's Institute of Civil Engineers, where she made nature the focus of her presidency. She's got an amazing track record as a champion for nature, sustainability and infrastructure, climate action, lectures wildly, and is widely wildly. I said wildly, Anusha, not widely. That's a bit weird, isn't it? And is a true and passionate advocate for the planet we all call home. So, Anusha, thanks so much for taking the time to talk to jump on the podcast with Damler and myself.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

Thank you so much, Stephen. It's always a pleasure to be chatting with you both. Um, so yeah, thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01 1:42

Well, Anisha, it's great to see you again. And now you are sending out a rallying cry for professional institutions and partners across the built environment sector to come together and show how nature-positive housing and infrastructure are key to delivering a better future.

The Nature Is Growth Pitch

SPEAKER_01 2:01

Give us the campaign elevator pitch. What's the call for action?

SPEAKER_00 2:05

Firstly, uh, I would like to take this opportunity to say I'm incredibly grateful to the many built environment institutions, their staff and members who've contributed their time, expertise, and energy, and you know, really kind of came behind me to really kind of give this campaign the support it needed. This campaign has been a truly kind of collective effort, and honestly, none of this would have been possible without their support and collaboration. So the central message of this campaign is that nature is not in competition with growth. Nature enables growth. A healthy natural environment underpins everything, as we all know, from water security, flood resilience, public health to investment confidence, productivity, and I would say attractiveness of our towns and cities and even rural areas. So if we want resilience infrastructure, thriving communities, and long-term prosperity, nature cannot remain at the margins of decision making. It has to become part of where, how we extract resources, how we plan, how we design, how we fund and deliver development. So that's the core of this campaign. So what makes this campaign different is that it is grounded in rail delivery. So across the UK and globally, the built environment sector is already delivering projects that are reducing flood risks, cooling cities, improving biodiversity, you know, truly strengthening resilience and creating that economic value at the same time. So the call to action is simple. We need policymakers, industry, investors to help scale what is already working. In nutshell, I would say the expertise exists, the innovation exists, the delivery capability exists. What we now need are the policy frameworks, investment mechanisms, and that collective leadership to embed nature into mainstream economic and infra infrastructure decision making. So, because truly believe that nature is not a constraint on growth, it is a catalyst for it. So nature is growth.

SPEAKER_02 4:05

Brilliant. I mean, DAML DAMLA is completely au fa with how to deal with this, but us here in the UK, we are melting. It's ridiculous. So uh that climate resilience challenge is right front of mind. The other thing, Anisha, I was just in what you said just then, I think it's really interesting. We can get onto this in a minute, but attractiveness of place, towns, and cities, I think is a really interesting topic on this one because I've long wanted to explore the intersectionality between creating more climate resilience, nature-friendly, sustainable places, and their brand appeal and how you shape the proposition. So I think attractiveness is something we could come back to

Putting A Price On Nature

SPEAKER_02 5:05

in a minute. But I just want to, before that, I want to talk about sort of measuring all of this. And you you said many times, and you just said just then that nature shouldn't be seen as a barrier to development and that it actually underpins our entire economy and society itself. And it's a, you know, our economy is a wholly owned subsidiary of our environment. How do we measure that value? Do we measure that value enough? Do people get it? Do we need to get better at establishing the proof behind all of this?

SPEAKER_00 5:34

Steve, unfortunately, I would say some things are going really well, but generally, I feel our perspective is kind of stuck in the 20th century mindset where we're still viewing nature as like that static barrier to be cleared rather than almost like, you know, the active engine for long-term prosperity. You mentioned tourism. You know, if we really look at it from a tourism lens, people would tromp to places where nature abounds. We've seen that. So talking about measurement, I think we're still much better at measuring the value of built infrastructure than the value of natural infrastructure, even though we know that it underpins economic activity and public well-being. For example, we routinely invest in maintaining roads, drainage systems, energy networks, buildings, but because we understand that economic risks if they fail, but we often fail to properly value the role wetlands play in reducing flood risk, trees play in cooling cities, or healthy catchments play in pretty much securing our water supplies. I mean, to be honest, this is starting to change. We are seeing growing use of natural capital accounting, biodiversity, net gain, climate risk assessments, and nature-related financial disclosures, but we still need to get much, much better at recognizing that nature within mainstream economic systems, that's still not there. I mean, we did have like groundbreaking reviews like the Das Gupta review, which highlighted in a very stark way that between 1992 and 2014 produced capital purpose and globally doubled, while natural capital purpose and decline by nearly 40%. So, in other words, we've been growing, you know, one balance sheet while steadily depleting the other. So I think to really measure what I'm talking about is three major areas we need to improve. The first one is we need broader economic models that account for natural capital rather than relying solely on GDP, which Daskopta review said. Secondly, we need better ways of understanding those ecological tipping points and the systeming risk, because ecosystems do not decline in neat, linear ways. And thirdly, we need stronger financial mechanisms that properly reward the protection and restoration of nature. And those mechanisms are there, but they're still in pockets. They're not mainstream. So what we lack is the widespread institutional will to move beyond this 20th century accounting system towards a more holistic, nature-inclusive economic model. Because until the destruction of the forest is viewed the same with the same financial gravity as the collapse of a major banking system or critical infrastructure asset, our measurement systems are not really doing their jobs. So ultimately, once the value of nature becomes visible within contracts, financial systems, natural account, national accounting and investment frameworks, then it's much easier to justify that investment. On a positive note, I would say that some of the work, even I'm leading along with the new engineering contract group, are we working on embedding nature alongside climate to enhance the X29 clause within the contracts? And I think I'm really hoping that should help move nature-led delivery from the aspiration towards implementation. So those instruments are being worked on, but we just need the pace, Steve.

SPEAKER_02 8:59

Yeah, yeah.

Bringing Back Wellbeing Dashboards

SPEAKER_02 9:00

Sorry, Tamla, if I just jump back in just for one second. But do you remember, Anusha, here in the UK and some other countries have similar systems? What's sad is that we've tried this before, haven't we? So when John Prescott was the Deputy Prime Minister a million years ago, we had this thing called the quality of life counts, I think we're called. And there's this kind of dashboard of a dozen or so measures that was continually reported to the public as to how well we were doing on some of these measures. Do you remember that?

SPEAKER_00 9:32

Yeah, I do. I where did that go actually? I know. Because, you know, if you look at countries like Bhutan, their GDP, their value is well-being. You know, it's it's kind of embedded in the governments and the, you know, the governments. And I think well-being is talked about, but we still have that as health and well-being on the side. So that dashboard, I really like that, Steve. How do we bring that back?

SPEAKER_02 9:57

You heard it here. Damn low, we're bringing it back.

SPEAKER_01 10:00

Great questions, actually. Who does their job well? How do we bring the good stuff back? These are questions we're always asking. But let's come back to the campaign.

Global Proof That It Works

SPEAKER_01 10:13

Part of your Nature is Growth campaign is all about showcasing those that are showing true leadership in the built-in environment and embracing the challenges of sustainable growth, climate resilience, public health, and long-term prosperity. Wow, those are really big, big, big titles. So, who do you think is doing well? That's the question. Who should the world take as an example?

SPEAKER_00 10:38

Thanks, Damla. I just wanted to continue with um my previous thought uh with Steve. Steve, uh what could you please share that with hashtag nature is growth? Because I really want people to see, because that's kind of forgotten the dashboard. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That would be wonderful. So sorry, Damla, coming back to your question. No problem at all. I think one of the most encouraging things right now is that we are already seeing examples around the world, which I was so fortunate to see as president because my theme was making connections for a nature and people positive world. So wherever I went, people were really showing me those examples where you know that nature-led development, economic growth is seen to be going hand in hand. So it's not, it's something on the side. One of the I was really happy to see that myself was Singapore. I think Singapore is probably one of the strongest examples globally. And what is remarkable is that Singapore has truly not treated nature as an environmental, you know, on the sidelines or an afterthought or something aesthetic, aesthetic add-on or something. It is really treating it as critical infrastructure and driver of economic competitiveness. I met so many people and they speak of nature as truly as part of infrastructure. So their vision has evolved from, you know, being a garden city to a city in nature. And that's that's the real shift where greenery is deliberately integrated into flood management, urban cooling, biodiversity, public health and livability. I mean, if you see projects like the Bishan Ang Mo Kyo Park, it has really transformed a concrete drainage canal into this naturalized river system that acts as both public space and flood infrastructure. Or through initiatives like the SkyRise Greenery Incentive Scheme, the developers are encouraged to replace, displace greenery within buildings themselves through these vertical forests and rooftop gardens, helping reduce urban heat and that you know energy demand. And importantly, I think Singapore recognized very early that greener, healthier, more resilient cities are actually more economically competitive cities. And we see, you know, people throng to Singapore and right from the airport, the, you know, you see how nature is a part of the everything. And another example I would say is the Netherlands. Another fascinating example is particularly the Rotterdam's climate adaptive water squares, the public spaces, they function as sports, courts, and community spaces in normal conditions, but temporarily they store stormwater during extreme rainfall events. So it's a brilliant example of infrastructure where placemaking, climate resilience comes together in one design solution. And I would also say another leaders are Scandinavia countries in Scandinavia, where we're also seeing innovative climate adaptive parks, particularly in Denmark, where public spaces are being redesigned to manage extreme rainfall while also improving biodiversity recreation. You know, they're making it a core part of their cities program, cities infrastructure program. And of course, you all know about uh the China Spon Cities, which kind of changed how we think about, you know, how cities manage water, heat, and climate pressure through more green and adaptive infrastructure. I would also say, I think it's important to see we here in the UK too, the Eden project, I mean, in Cornwall is a brilliant example how environmental regeneration can become a major economic and tourism success stories, attracting millions of visitors. I mean, why do we have to have one Eden project? Why don't we have more Eden projects across the country where we can create jobs, helping drive regional economic growth, and also while you're educating people about the relationship between nature, climate, and society? There are projects like uh Clyde Waterfront Regeneration Program, and I visited Belfast Conn's Water Community Greenway, another brilliant project which demonstrate how investing in nature can really support that overall regeneration, healthier communities and economic renewal. And I'm also really excited, you know, Steve knows, and we are, we are this exciting future-facing project like the Cyan Lions, which is exploring how more than 100 miles of connected blue and green infrastructure can help reshape urban resilience, ecology, mobility, and really that, you know, quality of life at a systems level. What all these examples have in common is that they no longer see nature as separate from infrastructure and development. They recognize that nature is part of that system. And I think, Dana, that real shift we are trying to accelerate through this nature is growth campaign is moving nature from the margins of development into that center of economic and infrastructure thinking. And so we need people to showcase those examples. And before I kind of close this answer, I really think another dimension to this conversation that often kind of gets overlooked is, you know, beyond economics, technology, infrastructure, there's also that deeper cultural and human relationship with natures. If you see countries like Nepal and Bhutan and a lot of African countries, the indigenous communities, how they treat nature, it's fascinating because nature is deeply embedded within spiritual life, identity, and those community systems. And perhaps that is part of what we have lost in our modern economies. We have become very good at measuring the economic value of nature, but really I would say less good at recognizing our emotional, our cultural, and even our spiritual dependence on it. So ultimately, I feel the countries and cities leading these transitions will be the ones recognizing that nature is not separate from prosperity, resilience, or human well-being. It is foundational to all the three, I would say. So I'm hoping, sorry, go on, uh Steve.

Designing A Nature Led Economy

SPEAKER_02 16:48

No, no, no, yeah. I was just gonna I was I was going to jump in and say that we're you're moving towards quite a revolutionary pitch there, Inusha, where we need to massively shift our thinking globally. And we've talked, I think we've talked a good deal earlier in this conversation around how we measure the value of nature, the the barriers that we need to break down, the attitudes that need to shift, and and the way that we need to evolve capitalism itself to recognize the value of nature. I wanted to ask you a slightly broader question though. If we're going to start a revolution, if nature's growth becomes this sort of annual festival of new thinking, the I wonder whether we could bring in some of the sort of wealth of thinking that I've I've always followed for years and I think is really inspirational around learning from nature, designing through nature, biomimicry, for example, the wider suite of nature-based solutions, clean tech, green tech, nature recovery programs, eco-innovation. Should we be doing, should we be broadening this out to be a huge sort of eco-revolution of in terms of thinking, progress, and our economies and societies?

SPEAKER_00 18:02

Absolutely, Steve. I think uh this is one of the most exciting opportunities of our time. I think uh, you know, too often conversations around climate, nature are just framed around sacrifice or constraint, when in reality, I think they are driving enormous innovation across engineering, design, technology, infrastructure delivery. You mentioned biomimicry. I mean, there's so much to learn from nature, you know, and biomimicry on one side, where you're inspired by nature. I mean, Japan's train, Bullet train, was inspired by the Kingfisher, you know, so there's so many examples around the world. But imagine that on one side, indigenous communities, the way they treat nature, you know, the emotional, the spiritual, the respect of nature, and then the digital environmental modeling, AI-enabled monitoring, smart water systems, and just imagine we marry them all up and create this, the financial tool to make it happen and make them as how we would design big infrastructure projects and you know, not keep this as separate. And this can all work as a system so well. So, this, as you say, is almost a fundamental shift. So it's almost like creating new models, new systems. What we are doing, Steve, at the moment is all of the stuff we spoke about is seen as innovation and in pockets, and you know, it's not the norm. And then we are trying to kind of plug it to our current systems, and of course they don't match up, you know. And on the other hand, we have these huge ambitions. So I think we have to fundamentally change our operating and financial systems and and and use this opportunity to go back to how we used to be, you know, to be in tune with nature. And we've seen going against it is uh, you know, we have seen what happens is the short-termism. We are we are going to have like, look at us right now, all of us are kind of it's blistering heat. And how many fans do we need? Are we going to use air conditioning systems? And what does that do to carbon? So imagine now if we fundamentally shift that and redesign our places and redesign an infrastructure by truly keeping nature and people at the heart. And it's not impossible. You know, we've seen projects, we've talked about the projects, but what we need to do is make them as part of our national uh, you know, infrastructure strategy. This should not be some things like, oh, we should be thinking about nature-based solutions and have a paragraph on a on a report. This should be front and center. This should be like, can we look at every project, everything in the pipeline, and see how we can have nature first approach? And I'm really pleased to say that I, along with our group I mentioned before, we are really trying to lead this nature hierarchy of we have to justify why you can't nature first approach. And that's where we need to get to. Sorry, very long answer for your question, Steve. But there is a big very good answer. Because I'm like, people know the benefits, people know how appointing it is, people can feel it, people travel to other countries to be with nature. Why do you have to travel all the time? You know, you can create those places within where you live. And what's not to like about it? So I think a lot of our I would love for all of this to go beyond our sustainability champions and regenerative growth champions. I want, you know, chief financial officers and CEOs to be talking about all of this in their boardrooms. And that's the shift we need, really.

SPEAKER_01 21:36

Well, that also addresses the scaling issue, I think, what you have said in the last three minutes. Because when we talk about the nature based solutions and the projects going on with them, we always bump into another barrier called scaling. Oh, that's nice, but this is a small area with blah, blah, blah, blah. But if we can change the understanding. Understanding completely that issue also resolves itself. So that's that's where my question will lie.

Research Gaps And Long Term Maintenance

SPEAKER_01 22:08

During the launch communications around nature is growth, you have mentioned the research agenda in this area. And where are the gaps we need to fill in our collective global understanding? Because we do see there are some gaps which make false barriers around the idea.

SPEAKER_00 22:28

Yeah, Damn, I think one of the biggest gaps is that we still tend to study climate, nature, infrastructure, health, economy, farming, all in silos, even though in reality they're deeply, deeply interconnected systems. For example, we still need a much better understanding of the true economic value of ecosystem services. And there's so many measurements. People have got so much of research material, but we keep reinventing the wheel again and again. I think it's about bringing the groups together and amplifying each other's work. You know, I think it's also and any complex questions, we need to send it to the research community. And we need stronger evidence. And we they keep saying we need stronger evidence. Yes, there is evidence, but we need the research community to bring it to the decision makers in a very simple format so that they understand it well. And I would say it's data and stories, it's evidence and stories. So I our research community also needs to see that how to have that qualitative, which which some of them are doing brilliantly well. It's presenting the data, the evidence of that, you know, what successful nature-positive delivery looks like at scale, and but also bringing in those stories as hand in hand. That's one. Another one I would say is uh another major gap is the maintenance and stewardship. You know, it's all good to create a very nature-positive infrastructure, but where it really fails is when we don't put maintenance budgets for it. So we focus heavily on creating new green infrastructure. But where is that funding line? How do we get that on the asset register? And how do we make sure that funding is there to maintain that, as we have for roads, bridges, or utilities? And finally, I think there's a huge opportunity from the research sector is innovation in the digital technology, the AI, and almost like bringing it together where we, in a very simple way, understand how nature positive is connected to our health and welding, is connected to tourism, is connected to that economic engine, but equally start talking about the stuff that I said earlier about our basic, you know, that connection with nature, that that peace that nature brings. Make sure the technology and that are spoken in the same breath. Because I think that's a fundamental shift. That if we, I know it says what doesn't get measured doesn't get built, and all that stuff. I I agree with that. But I think evidence plus stories, evidence plus bringing it back to how we used to live with nature is equally important. And I wouldn't call all those things soft issues, because those are essential issues. Ultimately, what good are brilliant economic models if if we see people dying from a heat wave, for example, if we see hospitals flooded with people, if we see elderly, our elderly in their homes which are not designed for this weather, to be passing out. You know, so I think we have to get very real about things and think of economics in terms of real things on ground. What does it mean? How how is a nation productive if if their people are just not having that quality of life? So I think we really need to get philosophical but equally real about things.

SPEAKER_02 25:58

So we're gonna balance the philosophical with real. I feel a Gramsci quote coming on, Damler. As always. Uh the optimism of the uh will and the pessimism of the intellect, I think, is uh required as in terms of our balancing act, Anisha. Anucia, we're gonna have to wrap this up. I really would love to carry on talking. I also that when you talked about maintenance, then that was really powerful because it's kind of crazy that we think nothing of having a huge maintenance budget for the world's highways and roadways. And yet the idea of maintaining the natural ecosystems that literally keep us alive is something we struggle with. It's murders. Anyway, listen, our

Breakthrough Moment And Closing

SPEAKER_02 26:40

final question, just to make sure that we finish this with a smile, would be this what would your dream be this week for your campaign to have a true breakthrough moment?

SPEAKER_00 26:50

Ah, I like that. I think a real breakthrough would be if the conversation moves beyond our built environment and sustainability bubble into mainstream business, finance, and that leadership. If I would love if CEOs, investors, chief risk officers start talking about nature as an enabler of economic resilience, you know, if they start talking about this, and I would love to see our cross-sector institutions receiving, like flooded with new inquiries from organizations asking, how do you engage with this agenda? How how do we engage? What does nature-positive infrastructure mean for us? How can we help? And personally, I would see success if I start hearing from people outside the usual suspects, as I said, you know, the developers, the financiers, infrastructure operators, who you wouldn't normally see talking about this all the time. And I would also love to see some practical examples and projects across the UK showing that this is not theoretical anymore. The solutions are already existing. And I would say another breakthrough moment would be seeing that genuine debate and discussion happening publicly, some, you know, people challenging ideas, sharing lessons. And this is when a campaign kind of becomes a movement rather than just a communication exercise. And ultimately, I think success would be if this campaign shifts from the margins of policy into that business thinking, as I've said it all along. And honestly, one of the biggest signs of success would be you know, the hashtag Nature is GrowthMessage continues beyond this week. If people keep using this hashtag, sharing projects, and and you know, carrying on the conversation forward beyond the camp when it formally ends. And that ripple effect is how I would say the real shade starts to happen. So, Steve, to your point, what if we have hashtag nature is growth festival every year? And then we get all of that together at that festival. What's been happening? There you go.

SPEAKER_02 28:49

There you go. There you go. Next stock Davos, I think. We'll take over Davos with the Nature is Growth Festival. That's that's where Lisa, that's the that's where this goes next, Damla. Well, we're definitely out of time. That's been a wonder. I I particularly enjoyed today, Damler. We've been around the world, the global examples that Anusha shared. We've been literally everywhere. So, Damla, you better wrap us up though. We're running out of time.

SPEAKER_01 29:11

So, thanks to everyone who has listened to our Goodgeist podcast brought to you by the Do Not Smile Network of Agencies.

SPEAKER_02 29:18

And make sure you listen to future episodes where we'll be talking to more amazing people about how we can work together to create a more sustainable future. So, Anusha, Damler, see you soon.

SPEAKER_03 29:28

Bye. Bye. Goodgeist, a podcast series on sustainability. Hosted by Damla Ozler and Steve Connor. Brought to you by the DNS Network.