The Climate Barometer, with Susie Wang

Has the public has “moved on” from climate change as some commentators might like us to believe? The data tells a different story. We sit down with Dr Susie Wang, climate and environmental psychologist and co-founder of Climate Barometer, to unpack what UK voters and MPs actually think about net zero, renewable energy, and climate action, when you track attitudes over time instead of chasing one-off headlines.

Susie tells us that at worst climate concern is plateauing, not plummeting and that there exists a major perception gap, with both the public and politicians underestimating how much backing exists for net zero and for local clean energy projects like onshore wind and solar, plus the grid upgrades needed to make them work.

We also explore why “NIMBYism” is often overstated, what eco-populism can look like in Green politics, and how a focus on fairness, trust, and everyday local issues can strengthen climate communication without constantly shouting about climate targets. Well worth a listen if you want to tune into where people's heads are at on climate! 

Follow GoodGeist for more episodes on sustainability, communications and how creativity can help make the world a better place.

Transcript

Welcome To Goodgeist

SPEAKER_03 0:02

Goodgeist. A podcast series on sustainability. Hosted by Damla Eusler and Steve Connor. Brought to you by the DNS Network.

SPEAKER_02 0:22

Hello, hello everyone. You are listening to Good Guys, the message on sustainability, which is brought to you by the DNS Network, the global network of agencies dedicated to making the world a better place. This is Damlo from Mira Agency Istanbul and This is Steve from Creative Concern in Manchester.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

This podcast series explores global sustainability issues, how they communicate. See Susie said stumble over words, and now I'm a completely stumbly wordy guy. I'm going to start that bit again. You ready? And this is Steve from Creative Concern in Manchester. This podcast series explores global sustainability issues, how they communicated, and what creativity can do to make positive change happen.

Meet Dr Susie Wang

SPEAKER_02 1:06

So in this episode, we're going to talk to Dr. Susie Wang from Climate Barometer, a fascinating organization that researches and reports on what people are saying and thinking about climate change right across the world, including some really interesting recent work on ecopopulism and the rise of the Greens in the UK.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

So Susie is Climate Barometer's lead research and co-founder. She's a climate and environmental psychologist whose work focuses on public engagement, climate communications, and how people make sense of infrastructure and environmental change. And she's led research both inside and outside academia, including at Climate Outreach and the University of Gruningen. So, Susie, thank you very much for taking the chance to talk to us.

SPEAKER_00 1:49

Thank you so much for having me.

From Psychology To Climate Research

SPEAKER_02 1:51

Nice to meet you both. So, Susie, let's find out a little bit more about you. You have been on a hugely impressive journey through research and academia, always with a view to having real-world impact. What set you on this path?

SPEAKER_00 2:07

Well, thank you. That's really kind. I think I would say I started out on the environmental path kind of abruptly. I mean, as a kid, I'd always loved nature and cared about the environment. But as my main degree was psychology, at the time I didn't really think about climate as a direction that I could go in. And at that time, things like climate anxiety and mental health weren't really things that people talked about, that they weren't issues that people researched. So it wasn't until I met my one of my PhD supervisors who suggested the topic of public views on climate change that I even knew that it was possible to do that. So it sort of took off from there. And I think geographically I went on a bit of a journey as well. So I don't know if you can hear, but I'm I grew up in Australia. So I started out my career in Australia looking at how the public, scientists, and also students thought and felt about climate change in my PhD. And ended up then visiting the Netherlands where I live now, doing a research position here and doing some cross-cultural comparisons, which then led to the internship at Climate Outreach in the UK, where yeah, I started working in the UK context and still with many of the people that I work with today. In between, I've also done research in the US and research in China. And it's all a bit erratic. I mean, in the middle, I think even did some social neuroscience, but I've kind of come back to this question of understanding what people think and how they feel about climate change at Climate Barometer. It occurs to me I should probably tell you a little bit about what we do, if that's useful.

SPEAKER_01 3:36

Yeah, yeah, go for it.

What Climate Barometer Tracks

SPEAKER_00 3:38

Okay. Yeah, climate barometer is relatively new. And we started in about 2022, and we started with the thought that there's a lot of polling and research on climate change and the environment in the UK. A lot of it is disconnected and disparate. So you see a poll about this here, and then another one there, and they're kind of slightly different questions that you can sort of pin together, and then, you know, it's it's really hard to keep track of. At the time, not much was doing sort of public opinion on climate change over time, and I think none that I know of was tracking political opinion over time, so MPs. And one of the things that we do is we we do both and we compare them. So we ask a representative sample of UK MPs and the public a bunch of questions every six months about climate change, about the environment, about net zero policies. And some of these things are repeated. So every six months we ask the same question, and sometimes we have sort of questions that come up in the sort of what people are thinking about at the time. And the idea is that over time we can really piece together what's happening, what's developing, if major events happen, how has that changed or not changed public opinion on climate change and sort of make sense of it all rather than sort of uh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:56

I guess that's that's where I'm gonna finish my sentence. Very good. Well, no, I'm we're and we're gonna come back to that as well because we want to we want to go back to the tracking bit because it's so interesting, isn't it, to take a longer view. Because we're so used to reading sort of polling results, and it's like that's snapshot in time, whereas you're tracking trends, which is super interesting, but we'll come back to that. You've one of the headlines from Plum Bromta is that as you and this is your phrasing, climate concern from the public is plateauing, not plummeting. Nice bit of alliteration there, whoever wrote it. That was you, Susie. I like it very much. And that, I mean, as that's lovely news to hear. Would you mind telling us the data behind that?

Net Zero Support Plateauing

SPEAKER_00 5:41

Yeah, of course. Yeah, so I think it's important to set the context of why we're even talking about public opinion plummeting in the first place. So basically, over the last couple of years, we've seen a lot of changes in the UK's political landscape. We've seen from what was relatively bipartisan support for climate action to the situation now where we have a lot of political fragmentation and reform polling higher than both the major parties, alongside ongoing cost of living crisis, and it was it's also post-COVID. So it would be sort of unsurprising if views on climate change were to plummet. I think there's also some work from Carbon Brief showing that in editorials there's opposition, opposition to climate change is higher than it ever has been. So in the media, we're also seeing that. But yeah, basically our data seems to show that it hasn't changed that much from a public opinion perspective. So one of the key questions that we use to gauge this is support for the government's net zero target, which is net zero by 2050. Though we have a range of other questions too, which I'll probably get to. And when you look over time, I think back in the end of 2022 was sort of the highest point, was around 70% of the public supported net zero. And now with all of these changes, it's 63%. You know, and if you watch the wine, it is sort of creeping down. But it's it is, as we say, it's sort of reached a point where it's plateaued over the last year or so. It hasn't really seemed to drop any further. And the majority of what's changed has really come from people who now support reform, but even that isn't so black and white. So we looking across the data, around a third of reform supporters actually identify as very concerned about environmental issues. So it's actually sort of that phrase the question is part of their identity, which chimes with other work, I think, from from Hope Not Hate, that looks at reform voters and how it's not a uniform bloc, but different groups have very different views, especially also on the environment. So, yeah, there's definitely an overestimation of anti-climate views and net zero views from from everywhere, from the public and politicians.

The UK Climate Perception Gap

SPEAKER_02 7:49

Wow. You also recently highlighted a perception gap, I mean, around how public and politicians significantly underestimate how much support there is for climate action. And large majorities say they would support renewable energy being built locally, including new solar parks, on sharewind, and even new pylons. So how does this gap perform?

NIMBYism Is Overstated

SPEAKER_00 8:17

That's a really good question. Actually, I'm just gonna come to the perception gap itself. So, yeah, I think what one thing that we found really striking is that 70% of the public and 50% of MPs underestimate support for things like net zero. It's a huge number. Most people are thinking that they're in the minority when actually they're in the majority. And as you say, yeah, that we also find perception gaps on renewable infrastructure. I think it's it's interesting. It's important. Well, we think it's important because for policymakers, it's not you might not dare to introduce a policy if you think that there's going to be majority opposition. And a lot of people do work on this. And a lot of it has to do with sort of loud voices dominating the conversation around opposition. But I think also it's important sometimes to look a bit more closely at what opposing voices are saying. So, well, I guess firstly with that loud voices thing, it can sort of amplify and seem bigger than it is. But I think also in other situations when there is genuine concern and legitimate questions, it's more about how something is being carried out rather than the principle of the thing. And we and we find that in our research as well. So I think one, I guess one topic is NIMBYism. I I have you heard of the term before? It's sort of it stands for not in my backyard. And the idea is that people would support something in principle, but only if it's not near them, that they don't have to face the consequences of it. And we did some research on this, I think, a year and a half or so ago. And it's a similar story. Politicians and the public really overestimate the number of people who who are like that in their area. I think, yeah. Ultimately, only of the people that we polled, only about 10% said, yeah, I like renewables, but I don't want them here. Whereas I think 63% said I like renewables and I would support them even if they're being built in my local area.

How Greens Use Eco-Populism

SPEAKER_01 10:20

I remember Suze um doing a focus group Many Moons, many moons ago, where it it was so lovely because somebody from a local community described onshore wind as angels on the hillside. Isn't that nice? I mean, yeah. See, people love this stuff. I was gonna ask you actually, well, first of all, on the perception gap, I think that's super interesting. And I don't know whether you've come across um the organization Common Cause and they did uh look at values, and there was a similar perception gap where the majority, like 72% of the public, when polled, say that the values they hold dearest are progressive, selfless values that show care for other people. But when you ask the same group whether they think people generally share those values, 72% said no. It's extraordinary, absolutely extraordinary, isn't it? But my question for you is actually another bit of your research, because we're going to come back to the public opinion tracker. But I think it's really interesting. And it's one bit of political disruption that we've we're seeing here in the UK that you've looked into, not the far right, but the eco-populism that's winning votes for the Greens. And the you've explored a little bit, haven't you? The the fact that there's almost a decentering of the environmental narrative in the Greens' rhetoric, in the Greens political pitch. And and that's really interesting. And sort of focusing more on new economic models instead. So, what's the playbook emerging from Jack Talansky there, do you think?

SPEAKER_00 11:58

Yeah, I'm I'm definitely not an expert on the Green Party's playbook. And we're also, I should say, we're nonpartisan at Limbrovda. But in terms of the communication approach, I think there's there is a lot of sense there. So I think in a way they are responding in a similar way to reform, even that to the disengagement and distrust and general sense that the UK isn't going in the direction that it should be, felt by many people who live in Britain. And this is more than just about the environment. So what we see is that they've been redirecting people's sense of anger and frustration towards the super wealthy, towards corporate profits, and focusing on inequality. And I think one of the questions that you could sort of ask here is well, people who have been talking about climate justice have been making these sorts of claims for a really long time, pointing the finger at big polluters, for instance. And it's not new. I think what's different here, and something that we've made the case for, is that the Greens' approach positions British households as the victim of an unfair system where the wealthy aren't taxed enough and the costs of the transition fall to ordinary people. And yes, you know, you're right, climate isn't the front and center of all of the Green Party's political statements. So you could say that they're decentering climate, but I don't necessarily think that that's to their detriment in this case. So for a couple of reasons. So one is reflecting the realities of the present and what's on the minds of many people, you know, war, genocide, cost of living, pressures, economic pressures. They are the lived realities. And one thing that we're arguing is that sort of not shouting about climate change all the time doesn't mean that you don't care about it or you're not going to do anything about it. So recently, my colleagues did a quick piece of analysis about the leaflets that the Green Parties were putting out there. We looked at the words that were came up on there. And they aren't talking about climate change as an abstract concept or about net zero, but what they are talking about are tangible issues and concerns that are very much related to the environment. Things like air quality, like waste, like bus services and recycling, protecting green spaces, which are all really local, very grounded, and also very, very, very much environmental. And so the analysis found sort of really lovely words as well. So local people, services, community, and hope with sort of things that were popping up a lot. And I think this approach is really important because it is meeting people where they are, where they experience a local environment, and also hopefully building, rebuilding that trust that you were saying, you know, that that has been degrading over time and giving people a sense that their concerns are being heard and will be addressed, which is as important, I would say, as getting to net zero as quickly as possible.

What Opinion Is Shifting Now

SPEAKER_02 14:45

I think I'm gonna mix and match my question and with what you said because it's important. So, as you know, and realize this is a very international podcast, but those words, I mean, local trust, community, hope, future, those are kind of international words popping out and international demands, actually. So we were talking with Steve, with another guest, and on that time we thought that sometimes the international globalist approach may not be that much bad when you're talking about the common ground, as Steve said. But I also wanted to ask you about the public opinion. So when we turn back to it, the climate barometers tracker of public opinion, which runs twice a year and through its consistent approach, helps you to really examine key trends in public thought. So we have been through hell, I think I may say, for the last year and the year before, and maybe a couple of years more. But what have you seen shift in public thought and opinion most dramatically in those recent years? And what surprised you actually in the tracker's most recent iterations?

SPEAKER_00 16:04

Thank you. Yeah, that's a lot actually. I wanted to come back to the first part of what you were saying about how you know local and and hope and community are very international common ground concepts. Just to say that one of the things that not so much what's different, but one of the things that is consistent and interesting is that that no matter so we we asked this question about what's important to you with regard to what's being built in your area in terms of like renewables. And and we we had a whole bunch of sort of things that might be important, like the cost and then sort of who's doing the the work and whether I'm consulted or not. What we found really striking is that the the top three answers were the same, no matter what demographic you were. So we looked at like political views, gender, age, ethnicity, region, social grade, all of that. The top three things were impact on my local community, impact on my bills, and impact on my environment. So I think you're right there, that there is that that common ground that, yeah, that is sort of a little bit universal. Hopefully also gives us a sense of optimism. In terms of other changes that we've been seeing. Yeah, let me see. I think in in a sense, what what I've sort of said earlier is that net zero views haven't really dropped a lot, that they they have been slowly declining. We've also seen support for the UK being ambitious on the global stage in terms of climate change falling a little bit more, which probably reflects a drop in prioritization of climate change as an international issue, especially with things like the US withdrawing from the Paris Agreement and all the other things that are happening on the international stage. I think another thing that has changed is that people are slightly more likely to say that it's going to cost too much to tackle climate change right now, and we should prioritize that issue. So sort of relating to that. Um at the same time, I think there's sort of there are there are glimmers of hope as well. So the public understanding of climate change as a real issue, as a human-caused issue, something we need to address, is even increasing among the public. And it's also stable among MPs. So we're not seeing climate denialism increase. Support for policies like home insulation and support, financial support for green upgrades to low-income families, all of that is really stable. Also, MPs, despite what's happening across the Conservative Party, most of I think 42% of MPs think the government should be doing more about climate change in 2023 and the same 31% in 2025. So that's also staying pretty stable. I think one other thing I want to talk about is the salience of climate change. So uh you hear this a lot about how sort of when you ask people about the top 10 most important issues to you, climate change used to be like top three, top five, and now it's more sitting around top 10. And that that is kind of true. But one of the things that that we're making the case for is it's not necessarily a reflection of that people care less about climate change. In a sense, if we look across all of the different measures, yes, you know, there is a little bit of a decline among some groups, but overall, I would say the measures are showing that people still really care and still want a lot of these policies to go forward. And it kind of is almost becoming a little bit more of the part of the woodwork. So if you look at these questions, um things like education and pensions and you know, things and and family life and these issues that are very core to a lot of people's lives are always sitting below the top 10 on these priority lists. But you can't say that people don't care about them. They're they're very important to people's lives in other ways.

SPEAKER_01 19:59

I see I I'm gonna jump in because I think, don't you think it's actually increasingly just the a false question? It's kind of stupid. When you when you start to take a step back and you think about it for a minute, it's kind of you know, if you take something I massively care I care massively about, right? So domestic violence, violence against women, okay. If you ask me in a poll off the street what are the things you care most about, I probably wouldn't come up with domestic violence. And yet, if you ask me directly, would do you feel extremely strongly about domestic violence. So yes, absolutely, so literally right there, central tenor of belief. So, in in a way, trying to turn this into a sort of issues popularity contest is kind of kind of insane, isn't it? It's like with the wrong question.

SPEAKER_00 20:52

Yeah, I definitely agree. There's there's way too much emphasis on this question. It just sort of illustrates the importance of asking a whole range of different questions to try and sort of Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Diet Change Without Shame

SPEAKER_01 21:02

Absolutely. So leaning into your extensive back catalogue of research and amazingness. I I wanted to ask you about food. Mainly because as Damon knows, I'm quite passionate about food issues and 35 years vegan and counting. So, what are your thoughts on dietary shifts? Because I know you've worked on this. So we seem to be talking a lot more about climate-friendly diets a couple of years ago, but that's kind of fallen away a little bit. And so, how do you feel we can uh convince more citizens across Europe to drop the meat and dairy? That's a really good question.

SPEAKER_00 21:43

Yeah, so I I saw a stat about meat consumption in the UK being at an all time low a few years ago, I think. And and I think in general about the UK, it seems to be stagnating. I would say the research that I'm aware of, it's important to avoid things like shame. And you kind of don't want to be seen as a do-gooder because that can really backfire. So anything that's identity-based isn't really necessarily going to convince a lot of people, I would say, the people who are who are not already leaning in that way. I think I think it's super admirable that you're been a vegan for such a long time. And I I personally really admire that, actually, I should say. I think for a lot of people, the sort of the black and whiteness of it is a bit tricky though. So a few years ago I worked on a chapter for the UNEP emissions gap report, and we worked with some researchers who work directly on working out the sort of emissions impact of different actions and shifting away from things. And basically the most impactful thing you can do, diet was you probably know this, is eat a vegan diet or a vegetarian diet. That's next best. But other measures also help. So eating only what you need and reducing waste is another one, eating less meat and eating local and seasonal foods and also organic foods. And so these are sort of ways in which we can kind of open the door a little bit and make climate-friendly diets a bit more accessible and achievable. Yeah, and I think another thing to maybe say is that people tend to underestimate the impact of changing their diet. It's really, I think, not one of the top things that people think are impactful that they can do. So that could be another sort of strand to come at it from. Yeah, and I think the piece of work that we did was really sort of trying to say it isn't necessarily just about motivating individuals to change. It's also to really change anything at the scale that we need, we need individual change, but we also need social and contextual things to change, really norms and sort of examples and media. We need sort of like things like community gardens, you know, and also structural and institutional support for that.

Climate Visuals That Spark Action

SPEAKER_02 23:50

Yeah, yeah. I mean, we would, I think, underline this three or four or maybe 10 times, and it was very important to stay. Another thing, you were at climate outreach for a number of years, and one bit of fascinating work explored by them is the impact of imagery on our collective consciousness around climate. So, what's the key to finding images that unlock action when it comes to cutting carbon emissions?

SPEAKER_00 24:19

Thank you. Yeah, that was, I think, around 2016 or 10 years ago now, I worked on the Climate Visuals project with my also my current colleague Adam Corner. And it was sort of a big project at the time at Climate Outreach. And other researchers, don't know if you've heard of Saffron O'Neill, also one of my PhD researchers, Zoe Levison, were talking about this problem that the images that people saw about climate change really didn't match the problem. So I don't know about you, but at the time, I think if you ask people what you think of when you think of climate change, it's is you can guarantee it was three things. One was melting ice, one was polar bears, and what was the third? No, I think probably just those two. Those two were the top. And that's kind of all you would see. Maybe even the same photo of the same polar bear would come up on news, right? So there was really a huge gap in, I guess, expanding people's imaginations when it comes to this huge issue. So the goal of that, these projects was to shift and broaden those images. And I don't know if there is a magic recipe for you know stimulating action, but I think definitely broadening things to show images of not just the impacts of climate change, but also solutions and really showing tangible things and people doing things uh is much more engaging and reflective of the broad issue that climate change is.

SPEAKER_01 25:42

I so I'm gonna come, I'm gonna come out and say, Susie, I loved that project. I followed it so closely. I wish we I wish we'd met earlier, because I would have loved to have talked to you at the time. Because when Climate Visuals came out, because I've like Damler, I've been working on climate communications pretty much my whole professional life in one way or another. And and when Climate Visuals came out, I thought it was just incredibly powerful. I also came up there, and we still get it to a degree, but in the environmental space, the use of cliched imagery is just shocking. I've said it before, Damler, but if if I ever see again a library or stock image of somebody photoshopping a planet into the cupped hands of a human, I just I'll go absolutely postal. I'll tear the computer piece pieces in front of me. It's just awful.

SPEAKER_00 26:36

I think that's the only image I had in mind, actually. It was the global.

SPEAKER_01 26:39

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, no. The huge the planet in the hands thing.

SPEAKER_00 26:43

Yeah.

What Makes Susie Smile

SPEAKER_01 26:44

Absolutely every time just sends me absolutely postal. Susie, we're out of time. I can't believe I want to talk more about visuals. We're gonna ask you our last question. Are you ready for this? So, our network is ironically called do not smile, because we know that we need to make sustainability a subject that brings happiness into the world. So, what object, place, or person always makes you smile?

SPEAKER_00 27:09

Yeah, this is probably the hardest question. I think I'm I'm gonna go basic and like if I see an animal where I'm not expecting it, it'll usually make me smile. So I have a couple of examples. I live in the Netherlands and a lot of people ride bikes. Whenever I see a dog on bike or riding next to a bike, I smile. Also, I I mentioned there were lots of ducks in my local area. A couple of ducks tried nesting in our hedge a few years back, and that was the most hilarious thing. They just sort of popped up in the middle of the hedge. Yeah, so animals doing weird things. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:44

Well, the internet was made for you. Yeah. Oh, excellent. Well, Susie, listen, it's been absolutely awesome talking to you and loads you can learn from. And I'm so glad that um Barometer is taking the pulse of our lovely population when it comes to climate beliefs and what we're doing. So thanks so much for spending so much time with us. It's been brilliant. Damla, do you want to wrap us up?

SPEAKER_02 28:09

So thanks to everyone who has listened to our Goodgeist podcast, brought to you by the Do Not Smile Network of Agencies.

SPEAKER_01 28:16

And make sure you listen to future episodes where we'll be talking to more amazing people about how we can work together to create a more sustainable future. So, Susie, Damla, see you soon.

SPEAKER_03 28:25

Bye. Hey, thank you. Goodgeist. A podcast series on sustainability hosted by Damla Ozler and Steve Connor. Brought to you by the DNS Network.