A Garden in the Sky, with Jason Williams

Is your balcony the most overlooked piece of green space in your life? It might also be the easiest place to start changing how you feel, day to day. We sit down with Manchester garden designer Jason Williams, known online as The Cloud Gardener, who lives in an 18th floor apartment and turned a glass-fronted, south-facing balcony into an oasis that’s part pantry, part wildlife stopover and part mental health reset.

Jason shares the  learning curve of balcony gardening and container growing: why “normal” gardening tips often fail in high-rise microclimates, how heat build-up can push temperatures 10 to 15 degrees above street level, and how choosing plants for your space stops the cycle of disappointment. We get into what he grows, how flowers affect yield, why flies can be underrated pollinators, and how small ecosystem thinking, right down to balcony ponds and organic feeding, makes a big difference.

We also explore the National Trust's Sky Gardening Challenge, now open across the UK, including the One Pot Power category that helps complete beginners start with a single container and build confidence. Jason explains why simple, positive communication matters when climate headlines feel bleak, and how balcony gardens become deeply personal spaces where people reconnect with nature at home. 

Listen in, and picture yourself in Jason's balcony oasis! 

Follow GoodGeist for more episodes on sustainability, communications and how creativity can help make the world a better place.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Good guys. A podcast series on sustainability. Hosted by Damla Uzler and Steve Connor. Brought to you by the DNS Network.

SPEAKER_01 0:22

Hello, hello everyone. You are listening to Good Guys, the message on sustainability, which is brought to you by the DNS Network, the global network of agencies dedicated to making the world a better place. This is Domla from Mina Agency Istanbul and This is Steve from Creative Concern in Manchester.

SPEAKER_02 0:39

This podcast series explores global sustainability issues, how they're communicated, and what creativity can do to make positive change happen.

SPEAKER_01 0:47

So in this episode, we're going to talk to garden designer Jason Williams. He lives on the 18th floor of an apartment block in Manchester City Center, which he moved into March 2020, just as the COVID pandemic began, and he decided to make the balcony of his flat an oasis and a place to escape to. He began his own Wheelog on YouTube to document his learnings and help others in the same situation learning about container growing. He has also documented how gardening helps him with his mental health.

SPEAKER_02 1:23

And it's fair to say, I think Jason started a bit of a movement, really. Balconies will never be the same, Jason. I think it's fair to say. He delivers garden workshops and has become an ambassador for the National Trust Sky Gardening Challenge, which is live now, as well as a judge for the competition, which we're planning to dive into today. So, Jason, thank you so much to talk for talking to uh Dana and myself. Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

First of all, the background story. How did you get into gardening design and then establish an incredible profile as the cloud gardener, which I love the name, by the way.

SPEAKER_03 2:01

Thank you so much. You know, it started during lockdown, and I was working in hospitality at the time. I was a general manager of a very busy pub. And I didn't realize until we went into furlough that actually a lot of my mental health struggles probably came from the fact that I was working between 40 to 60 hours each week, and my bar would be open 365 days a year. And as a general manager, I'm always on shift at the busiest times, which meant I was always working weekends, holidays. So I never had time to spend with family and friends. And so I think for me, I know that this is not the normal, but for me, COVID and that time in furlough was a reset. And it was a time to re-evaluate what my priorities were. But I was also looking for something to do as a hobby because there was not much to do. And I took myself to a local garden center and I got a couple of plants. I put them out onto my balcony. And to my dismay, not many of the plants survived. As I say, quite a few of them unalived themselves. So back to spend a little bit of time just understanding why things were not working. And I was watching gardening media, gardening social media, and following along what everyone was doing, but it it just wasn't working. Now, my balcony is 18 floors up, it's south facing, and it doesn't have railings, metal railings or brick. It is actually glass. And so what that does is it almost acts like a greenhouse. So on a summer's day or on a warm day like it is today, my balcony can reach up to 10 to 15 degrees warmer than it is on ground level. So in essence, it's like gardening on a greenhouse. And so if you think back to what I was saying about all of those plants under living themselves, it's because I was watching gardening media of people growing in the ground on ground level, and all of those plants were not suited to my space. And so I swiftly learned that actually I need to readjust my thinking and grow what works in my space. And after I got the garden established, I thought to myself, how many people out there have given this balcony gardening a go and encountered the same issues, but then given up and thought, oh, I don't have a green thumb, I can't do it. And so I thought, oh, well, if I've made these learnings, perhaps I should just showcase some of this online. I didn't think that anybody would care. And then two years later, I designed a balcony garden at the Chelsea Flower Show. So I guess someone did care.

SPEAKER_02 5:07

Damn that, I don't I hope you don't mind me talking. We were going to go straight into sky gardening, Jason, but I just want to follow up on that a little bit. I mean, when when you were sort of growing up, did you have inklings? Did you sort of fiddle around with pots and compost? Is there anything that was a an indicator that one day you would become a champion of stopping plants from unlivening themselves, which is a verb I'm gonna start using all the time?

National Trust Sky Gardening Challenge

SPEAKER_03 5:33

You know, I had this conversation with my mum about a week ago, and my grandmother had a gardening bug, and she absolutely loved gardening. And she would get on coach trips to go to flower shows, and all of a sudden, I as I was discussing this with my mum, all of these memories as a child came flooding back of all the times I spent there with my gran out in her garden. But I guess as I grew older, and after you know, she passed, and as I grew older, my connection to gardening kind of got severed. And then I've always lived in a big city. So, and I've always lived in an apartment that's probably had a balcony or something, but I I just never had put the two together. And it wasn't until COVID that's that's when it started, that's when when it when the passion became alive. I think for me, why gardening was so important to me was not only was I able to grow my own food, not only was I able to see the impact that it made to local wildlife by seeing all of these creatures come and use my garden either as a pit stop or as a home, but it was more so the therapeutical side of gardening. And I didn't, I just didn't know. And so I began to share my mental health journey online, and that seemed to resonate with the audience who found me. And again, I look across the city like I am now, and I see empty balconies all over with washing or with bicycles on. And I just think, what if some of those people out there knew the power of gardening? What if, what if some of them could start this? How much that could help their mental health? And I think that's been the massive driver behind everything that I do.

SPEAKER_02 7:32

So, Jason, let's talk about the Sky Gardening Challenge, which is launched this week, now a national competition. I love something that's national born in Manchester. That's exactly the way things should be. Actually, international born in Manchester. So tell us about the competition, what it is, and what kind of transformation it could bring about.

SPEAKER_03 7:51

So the national, the sky the National Trust Sky Gardening Challenge started around about two years ago. So I think we had our first pilot around two years ago, and that was based in Manchester. And the goal was to try to encourage as many people as possible to transform their balconies into something like mine. And over the past two years, we've done a lot of research and worked out that if you were to add up the land mass of all of the balconies in the Greater Manchester region, it equates to 33 football pitches. And so if we could just green up a fraction of those, we could really make a difference to a well-being, but also urban wildlife. And so the competition, oh, the National Trust Sky Gardening Challenge is all about getting people involved. So we were delivering workshops all around Manchester, really engaging with people. It was a very hands-on thing, providing lots of different resources, seeds, online material, and then there's also a competition element. So the Sky Gardening Challenge is broken up into five different elements. So there is wildlife, there is urban farming, there's also a category called one-part power, which we'll come back to.

SPEAKER_02 9:21

That sounds exciting.

SPEAKER_03 9:25

We have greener ground floors, and that's for people who live in developments, uh, and they might be on the bottom floor, so if they could transform that ground space. And then we also have a category about sustainability. And so people get to pick their category and they can submit their garden into one of those categories. And if they make it through to the short list, then myself as head judge and panel of judges will come around to your space and hopefully you can win a prize if you are the winner. And it's just absolutely fantastic. But I think out of all five of the categories, my favorite category happens to be this one pot power. And a one-pot power is all about just this one pot. And you don't necessarily have to have a massive balcony like mine, you could just have a shelf in an apartment. And in that shelf in the apartment, you might grow a whole ton of different fruit or verd or just something. And what I really, really loved about this particular category is going out as a judge, meeting some of these contestants with their one-pot power. And actually, they have more than one pot. So one of the winners started off just growing a couple of herbs, I believe, in a pot, but actually walked in and she had some giant tomato plants. Her flatmates have all been involved. Everybody was now growing in this one flat, and they didn't have any form of outside space whatsoever. And it was just absolutely incredible to see that we we kind of planted this metaphorical seed in her mind after she came to one of our workshops. And actually, that sparked a passion in her and a new desire to connect to nature. And I think that pretty much sums up the sky gardening challenge for me. Is it's it's not, although horticulture is an element in the Dudging criteria, it's also about engaging people and getting people across that ridge and getting them started. So the fact that it had been received so well here in Manchester, and you know, we'd seen such great success. I'm so, so proud that the National Trust really believe in this campaign and have rolled it out nationally. And so now it's open to everybody in the UK. And there are workshops available in cities up and down the UK, but they're also online resources. If you go to the National Trust website and then search Sky Gardening, it will come up for 2026. And there's also a free balcony gardening beginner's guide available to download as well.

SPEAKER_01 12:12

I want to go deep into this engaging part because when we look at all your content and your speech at the moment and Cloud Gardener, it just feels amazing. And then that one-pot power that also clings with the one-pat challenges, challenges throughout the internet. So you really do touch to the communication basis and you use the words very, very effectively. Can you talk about the mechanism and the thought behind that? Because that's a huge story to tell, and you kind of engage people with those words very well.

SPEAKER_03 12:51

Thank you. I think one of the things that I have come to learn over the past few years is how important it is to communicate some of these ideas because we live in a world right now where there is a lot of negativity around climate, around growing in general. And so for me, I think it's really important to kind of simplify things and allow people to go on their own experiences and on their own journeys. And so I think something like one pot hour really demonstrates that. We set a simple goal, you can submit this one pot, and actually sometimes the one pot that they start off with might not be the one that they end up submitting to us as judges because over the space of that summer they've grown gone on their very own growing journey. So sometimes they might think that they're going to grow a whole load of hers, but actually they found a lot of joy in growing flowers, so they've switched. And so I think it's really, really important to share that message and also talk about it in a positive light. I mean, there's a lot of negative headlines these days. So to be able to interject that with something positive, I think is really, really important.

SPEAKER_02 14:24

I love that. I mean, I well, it won't surprise you, Jason, to hear that I agree. Jamla definitely agrees. And I just wanted to ask some. I I think I think I'll get the frame the framing of this question right, or it might make it might be complete word salad, in which case you'll have to forgive me. But balconies, right? They're so they're interesting, aren't they? Because they're not they're not gardens. They're not this formal space that you you exit from your house or domicile or grand country home, and then you walk into a garden. They they're very much a part of the domestic and very personal, aren't they? They're they're like they're different to a garden, aren't they? And I just wondered what your thoughts. You talked about mental health and the difference that it makes. And and I think balcons are interesting because they're very personal spaces. You just open up a bit of your living room or even your gar your bedroom, and it's there and it's right next to you. And in a way, that optimism that you and that positivity that you just talked about is that people connecting on a very personal way with nature within their own environment that they almost curate and feel very emotional about. So, do you feel you're taking people on quite a well Daryl said, quite an emotional and personal journey?

SPEAKER_03 15:36

I think you've probably hit the nail on the head there. I I think that when you do choose to garden on your balcony, it it is a very personal journey. So for me, in actual fact, what had happened is I started off thinking about self-sufficiency on my balcony. And that's why I had started, especially during that time in COVID. Because if you remember, we were going through different sorts of shortages with food. So things like cucumbers and peppers were things that we couldn't get in supermarkets, and if we could, they'd bump the prices up. But actually, going back to what I was saying earlier, my balcony is very, very different. And so I mine is essentially a greenhouse, which makes it a perfect environment for cucumbers. So I was able to grow all of these different fruit and veg. So, for example, I grow kiwis, passion fruits, lemons, limes, chilies, peppers, cabbage, broccoli, kale, all sorts of Mediterranean herbs. I have a a growing, a vining form of spinach called Malabar spinach. And so I'm able to grow all of these different things on my garden, but I swiftly learned that actually, if I wanted to increase my yield, I could, I needed to include some floral elements into my garden. And so then I started growing a lot of flowers and incorporated that into the mix. And then I began to notice what wildlife came to visit my garden. And actually, my number one pollinator on my garden is not a butterfly or a bee, although I do get those and they do visit the garden. My number one pollinators are flies. And so then I went down a whole road of learning which flowers work best for flies if I want to increase my crook yields. So you just go on such a magical journey. And you know, I I've ended up now, I've got three ponds out on this balcony, and one of them is a fish pond. But then I use the fish pond water to then fertilize the rest of the garden. So I try to keep everything as organic as possible. And that's my little journey, that's my little story. And so by showcasing some of my story and inspiring other people, they end up creating their own stories. And it's really, really fascinating, especially as a judge, to come out and listen to other people's stories and see what their challenges have been and how they've managed to overcome them through the National Trust Sky Gardening Challenge.

Churchill Fellowship On Urban Greening

SPEAKER_01 18:18

Well, if there is something to come to earth over and over again, I think you were a storyteller in your previous life and now a gardener. And we all know how that will go in the next one. So let's talk about the Churchill Fellowship you're a part of and the journey you've been on, researching green space across Europe and Asia.

SPEAKER_03 18:50

I am very passionate about greening the city, and it's something that I don't feel that we do enough of here in the UK. And so I ended up looking at looking for different ways to try and learn more about greening. And I came across the Churchill Fellowship, and the Churchill Fellowship allows you to travel across two continents to research a topic of your choice. And I decided that I wanted to study how to make our towns and cities greener and the positives and negatives of eco-tourism. And so I put together a proposal, I sent it off, I made it through the applications process. I had to go down to London to have an interview, which was very much like the dragon's den. And I do recall at the end of that interview, I burst into tears because it had been about 10 to 12 months of preparation for this interview and for through that whole application process in general. So what people don't know is that in 2024 I designed seven gardens at the RHS Urban Show. And what the RHS didn't know was that was my application to the Churchill Fellowship. I was demonstrating to them on the biggest scale that I possibly could what my current understanding of urban greening was and where I thought we could improve. And luckily, I was able to demonstrate that in my interview, and I was successful. And that allowed me then to travel to Milan, Barcelona, Singapore, Hong Kong, and then China. And I traveled for around about five months studying how different policies, how different towns and cities approach and greening. And my findings were really interesting. I found that in Asia, predominantly Singapore, there is a lot of policy around ungreening. And there is a real want and desire from the residents to have this green space, to the point where if that green space isn't delivered, there will be an uproar from the community. And that was very interesting to me because especially when I went to China, I heard multiple different times from my hosts that certain pockets of green space were inspired by Victorian gardening. And I thought, wow, I'm on the other side of the planet, and these people are telling me that they are inspired by Victorian gardening, and this is why they've created this beautiful green space, and yet I can travel back to the UK and not have that same experience. And when I got back from my trip, I I had the blues for a couple of Months because I think I thought that I was going to go there and find the answer. And I came back and realized that actually that's not the case. And so the way that I see things now is that you have to work alongside the local council, but you also have to work with the developers. And you also have to work with the community. And I often find that here in the UK, unfortunately, things are very much profit-driven when it comes to urban green spaces. Whereas in Singapore and China, it's about the greater good. So they will just do it. There's also differences, of course, in government styles in Singapore and China. But what that allows them to do is it allows them to cut the red tape and organize things and get things done quickly. So in Singapore, they are able to deliver a central hub of new town in the space of five years. Whereas here in the UK, we've got multiple different elections. We have by-elections for someone who's got fired for doing something inappropriately, that actually progress can never really get made because there's always multiple changes. And then, of course, the developers here are more interested in returning in their return of investment. So I think that when it comes to green spaces in in the UK, one of the good things is encouraging developers to make green spaces within their developments. But I think it's also really important to focus here on community-led green spaces. But I also think that when it comes to balconies and micro greening, it that's also really, really important. So there are multiple different layers of urban greening in order to achieve what we see in Singapore and China.

SPEAKER_02 23:59

So and I'm going to I'm sorry to do this, Jason. I'm going to do a blatant plug because, as you know, we've got a program in Manchester called Sion Lines, which is working with a lot of those developers. So that is the most blatant plug, isn't it? That's outrageous. But but it's exactly that. It's like community level, personal, plus working with developers really collaboratively to try and deliver that nature. So I'm wondering whether we need to appoint you a city gardener for the system for Manchester. What do you think? I think it'll have to have a very elaborate, probably chain of office as well. I think it'll have to have something like that to be the city gardener.

SPEAKER_03 24:36

Since the announcement of Sign Lines, I've been waiting for that email to crop up in my inbox. I've been maybe I just need to refresh it a few more times and it will appear.

SPEAKER_02 24:45

Okay, on behalf of everybody involved in sign lines, I'd like to personally apologize and collaboratively apologize and organizationally apologize for not making you City Gardener sooner. But here, live on the podcast, Jason, I announce you as City Gardener.

SPEAKER_03 24:58

Well, you know, I have been working with developers now for quite some time. So I will accept that gladly once I receive that email. Okay.

What Makes Him Smile Closing

SPEAKER_02 25:07

Okay, that's fine. Oh my goodness, we're totally running out of time. Danler, have you got a final question for Jason?

SPEAKER_01 25:13

Yes, our final question. Our network is ironically called do not smile because we need to make sustainability a subject that brings happiness into the world. So, Jason, what object, place or person always makes you smile?

SPEAKER_03 25:32

You know, that is a really great question. I think I think for me it it probably actually is my balcony. And I I think it's because it's one place that I can go that I will go out there, I'll turn off my phone and stop my connection to the outside world. And for however long I'm out there, I feel like I'm connected to nature. Whether that is me feeding the fish or just sat there watching the bees and the flies at work in the garden. It's something that I'm really, really proud of. And it's some is something that grounds me, even though I'm not on the ground. So yeah, I think it's definitely the balcony.

SPEAKER_02 26:15

My God. Damla, I'm sure there's a podcast title somewhere about being grounded in the air. We're gonna have to work that one out. There's there's something in there.

SPEAKER_01 26:22

There is in there.

SPEAKER_02 26:24

That's gonna torture me. I'm gonna get that at three in the morning. I know I am. Oh, Jason, that's been it's been so lovely talking to you. And I think, I think the Churchill fellowship that that you've been doing and that research is an indicator of the fact that you're this is gonna sound really cheesy, but your journey is like only just starting, I think. And that's really exciting. So totally amazing. Thanks for talking to us about the Sky Gardening Challenge. I think all of us need to go away and design our one-pot power right now. But so we've got to get food, some pollination in there, something a bit funky and unexpected. But no, that's been brilliant. Danla, I think it's time to wrap us up.

SPEAKER_01 27:01

So thanks to everyone who has listened to our Goodgeist podcast brought to you by the Do Not Smile Network of Agencies.

SPEAKER_02 27:07

And make sure you fit this future episode where we'll be talking to more amazing people about how we can work together to create a more sustainable future. So, Jason, Danla, see you soon.

SPEAKER_00 27:16

Bye.

SPEAKER_02 27:18

Bye.

SPEAKER_00 27:21

Goodgeist. A podcast series on sustainability.