Nature: A Critical Infrastructure, with Prof. Anusha Shah

What if we treated wetlands, rivers and forests with the same seriousness as bridges, tunnels and treatment plants? We sit down with Prof Anusha Shah, the engineer, former ICE President, and founder of Plan for Earth, to explore how putting nature at the heart of decisions can transform cities, infrastructure and public health.

Anusha shares the personal path from the lakes and landscapes of Kashmir to global practice, then maps for us a clear shift from “less harm” to regenerative growth. We look at the hard data on biodiversity loss and breached planetary boundaries, and then pivot to solutions: protecting remaining ecosystems, restoring damaged ones, transforming food and material systems, and reconnecting people with urban nature. Water threads through everything—too much, too little, too dirty—so we talk catchments, upstream‑downstream design, and why most climate risk is really water risk.

The conversation gets practical as nature becomes critical infrastructure, managed as an asset class with registers, metrics and maintenance. We dig into funding gaps, the trillion‑scale value of ecosystem services, and how blended finance can scale what works. Then, looking to COP31, we call for a move from pledges to proof: phasing out fossil fuels, mobilising climate finance, and accelerating adaptation and restoration.

If you’re an engineer, planner, investor or policymaker, this is a blueprint for action. You’ll leave with a playbook to mainstream nature‑positive design, examples you can adapt, and a renewed case for careers that combine data and storytelling to deliver healthier places.

Follow GoodGeist for more episodes on sustainability, communications and how creativity can help make the world a better place.

Transcript

Welcome & Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Good geist a podcast series on sustainability hosted by Damla Eusler and Steve Connor. Brought to you by the DNS Network.

SPEAKER_02 0:22

Hello, hello everyone. You are listening to Good Guys, the message on sustainability, which is brought to you by the DNS Network, the global network of agencies dedicated to making the world a better place. This is Damlo from MIRA Agency Istanbul and This is Steve from Creative Concern in Manchester.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

This podcast series explores global sustainability issues, how they're communicating what creativity can do to make positive change happen.

SPEAKER_02 0:48

So in this episode, we're going to talk to Professor Anusha Shah, a global expert on nature, climate resilience, and sustainability. Until recently, a global senior director at Arcadis is now the founder and CEO at Plan for Earth, focused on resilient cities, nature, and water-positive solutions. She is hugely passionate about nature, well-being, and motivating people to take action.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

So given Anousha's bio, I'm surprised we've even managed to squeeze in this podcast, Anousha. So as a keynote speaker, analyst at a number of cops, Anousha's been incredible, has an incredible track record as a champion for nature. And sustainability, particularly in urban infrastructure and climate action. She made history as the first person of colour and then the third woman to serve as president of the UK's Institute of Civil Engineers in its whole 205-year history. She lectures widely at many universities. I said wildly rather than widely. I would quite like to watch one of your wild lectures. She's a real passion to get the next generation to think about people and nature at the outset and one plenty of infrastructure. And sits on the MetOffice board, steering group member with myself at Rebuilding Nature, the Energy Innovation Task Force and London Climate Ready Partnership, and is a trustee at the Green Alliance. Like I said, busy person.

SPEAKER_03 2:13

Thank you, Stephen Amla.

Anusha’s Journey Into Sustainability

SPEAKER_02 2:15

What a pleasure to be here. It's great to have you here today with us, Anisha. So I'm going to start with your own story. We love to get to know our guests on the podcast. So, first of all, can we get a bit of your backstory? What led you via engineering to become such an incredible champion for sustainability?

SPEAKER_03 2:35

Well, you're making me blush now, Daph. So I'll tell you a bit of my personal story. So I'm from Kashmir, which is north of India. So I grew up there. So uh just being a monster, a lot of natural, outstanding beauty really kind of shaped me personally. Now I know spiritually and professionally as well. So I did my civil engineering. So I studied in a presentation convent school, an Irish convent school back home in Kashmir. And then I went to Delhi and uh wanted to do architecture, but passed all other exams, but failed the drawing and fell into civil engineering, which was the best thing that happened. So I did my civil engineering, and I believe it or not, my first job was in development alternatives, which is USA-funded, UN-funded NGO, and they were working on sustainability. So this was way back in 1997. So my task was to lead this cost-effective environment-friendly forum where I had to convince civil engineers and architects to use compressed earth blocks and sustainable building materials. So my whole sustainability story started with my first job many, many years ago. And uh, but I was always kind of more interested in the water and environment aspects of it and just skipping some steps in the interest of time. So I was selected as one of the Commonwealth students to do masters in water environmental engineering in Surrey. And that's how I came to the UK in 1999. And then I went back to Kashmir and worked on a Dun Lake conservation project, which had all the aspects of sustainability from waste to uh water treatment to wastewater treatment to catchment management. And then I things were politically not great in Kashmir, so I came back to the UK and worked with many consultants, Black and Beach, then Jacobs, then CH2M, and then Jacobs bought CH2M. So I had like a 26 years of experience across many water environmental projects. And one of them, particularly, at I was on site in the Lake District where we were building pumping stations for United Utilities. I was working seconded at Llancy Docra. And I remember that time, me and the contracts manager actually wrote a paper for Sivam's third national conference, which was around does environmental stewardship make good business sense? So, you know, I had kind of this was in 2005. So what I'm trying to say is the whole agenda of sustainability never left my mind. And I was really wanting to, whichever project I did, this that was at the core of what I did. And since then, you know, I apart from my day job, which was more recently, as Steve said, in the Arcadis as Global Senior Director for Climate, Water, Nature, I've always pushed how do we make sure that we are not looking at sustainability in isolation. In fact, I I also say that we have to move beyond sustainability now because sustainability, in an essence, the definition is, you know, leaving how we have the assets now for future generations, but but what we're leaving now is in a damaged state. So I really kind of championing, started to championing uh regenerative growth is uh that's how I talk about when you really cut the noise. How do you plan and design infrastructure by keeping nature and people at the heart of it? And that's what at Plan for Earth now, uh started on consultancy, I feel uh this is the right time where I'm kind of bringing my experience, my networks, my insights together and the relationships I've nurtured over the years across sectors, across geographies, is to connect the built environment, connect the real thorny issues and finding those solutions, but connecting the built environment with finance, with health, with policy to really kind of deliver those tangible, practical, scalable regenerative solutions on the ground. So long answer, but this there's stops.

Beyond Sustainability To Regenerative Growth

SPEAKER_01 6:32

It's a it's an epic journey, so it needs the the it needs the answer it needs, Anisha. I'm just wondering, I was doing some forestry projects in the late district in 2005. I probably could have waved at you over one of the lakes. Oh, we were buns there. Imagine that's sliding doors. So, given that extraordinary background, we is uh we're very uh we can on this podcast we can be a bit back and forth, and sometimes we go helicopter view, then very detailed helicopter view. So let's start with a big picture question, which is a global view on major issues. So look at looking at nature and your experience and all those very multifaceted, multidisciplinary lenses that you look through. Where do you think humanity is at? It's it's very interesting your your talk of regenerative growth. So, in terms of nature recovery and the global state of biodiversity, what's your take on how the planet's doing?

SPEAKER_03 7:29

Unfortunately, not very good, Steve, as I'm sure you know. I think unfortunately, we are running nature down faster than we can recover. That's where we are. I mean, if you look at statistics, like the wildlife populations have fallen by about 70% since 1970. And ecosystems like coral reefs, wetlands are disappearing, and freshwater species are the hardest hit. And roughly around one million species we're losing, and they're currently facing extinction. And if you look at the planetary boundaries, scientists have really confirmed that seven out of nine boundaries we have breached. So we're kind of almost pushing the earth out of its safe operating space, and that's not good. But having said that, I think the good thing is there is a huge acknowledgement across the board now, which wasn't a few years ago. And that's why we are almost in that beyond the acknowledgement phase. We are in the delivery phase where we have the 30 by 30 goal. You know, the Cummings Montreal pledge was to protect 30% of land and sea by 2030. So I think currently protection is not as we want it. It still stands at roughly 17% for land at 8% for ocean. So there's a huge amount of work to do. But then there are lots of things happening, like trans, I'm you know, TNFT, Task Force for Nature disclosures and all that stuff is happening. Or you talk about the business and biodiversity assessment, which has underscored that all global businesses should be, you know, asked to measure and disclose their nature-related risks and dependencies. All that is happening. And I think just in the UK, I'm really pleased to say I am now getting in touch with a lot of people, especially in the finance sector, and like Great Yellow and Rebalance Earth, where a lot of effort is going in large-scale rewilding and ecosystem restoration projects. They're scaling up. But the fundamental problem is the funding gaps are still remain a hurdle. So, with billions more required to really meet the 2030 targets. So I think the next four years are considered the decisive window to really determine if these systems can be stabilized or if they will reach their irreversible tipping points. On an optimistic side, I would say one thing I know is nature is incredibly resilient. So when we stop damaging ecosystems, give them space, they rebound. Forests can regrow, wildlife can return, fish stocks can recover. So the global stock take is that the situation is serious, but it's not hopeless. So the real question isn't whether recovery is possible, it's whether we move fast enough in the next decade to make it happen. So we can't have nature on fringes. We have to really move it from normal to normal and you know, just mainstreaming it and really understanding that, as I think the recent government report was that it is a security threat. So treating it on a war-footing basis is the way we need to be.

SPEAKER_02 10:29

So let's focus on that recovery part because we know that we have to do the stopping part, we have to stop harming, but then we have this recovery, and you are the president of ICE.

SPEAKER_03 10:44

So this is a very well ICE institution of civil engineering, ICE has having a strange name and a strange connotation at the moment, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 10:54

Yes, it is. So the rebuilding of nature and ecosystems, what should we be doing to have nature recover? And what is the playbook here?

State Of Nature: Data And Urgency

SPEAKER_03 11:03

I think the playbook is actually it's very clear now, and a lot of work has been done, Damla. So I would say we have to really, as I said, nature has to be at the heart of decision making. So nature can be built through roughly, I'll I'll just go through some of the actions is firstly, let's protect the remaining ecosystems we have, like forests, reefs, wetlands, you know, and and try our best to reach that 2030 goal. The second is we have to restore the damaged environments by reforesting land, reviving rivers, rebuilding those wetlands, mangroves, seagrass, which can recover quickly when supported. And then I would say transform, don't just think of built environment or agriculture of food and you know, all and fishing in isolation. I think they are all connected. So transform how food and materials are produced by adopting a really nature-friendly farming, fishing, forestry practices. And I would say and and connect it. I always say, like, you know, for example, water is a big, big part of this in nature. Sometimes it gets kind of left on its own. I would say more than 90% of all our climate issues are around water, whether there's too much of it, too less of it, or polluted. So it's very important to connect where you know the water drops on the catchment to where it ends up in the sea, and what are the interventions we can have across the catchment? So, what we can have in upland catchment, you know, slow down the water there. And how do we make sure that we are making those regenerative agricultural practices connect with with engineers? Because when water flows uh you know slows down, it can really help the highways and uh, you know, and network rail assets and also helps slow down the water. So looking at the multifunctionality of things, and I would say within cities, reconnect people with nature by really expanding urban green spaces, you know, bringing that bird song back into cities recognizes the economic value of ecosystems. And to do all of this, you might ask me how this all sounds quite uh, you know, like ambitious and visionary, but how do you do all of this? So it's really getting into the depth of the how, which is about a major shift is needed to treat nature as critical infrastructure. I mean, how we do with you know buildings and wastewater treatment plants, bridges and everything. This is a critical infrastructure because ecosystems provide those essential services, whether it's regulating water, whether it's preventing floods, filtering pollution, protecting our coasts through mangroves, soils storing carbon, producing food, all those multifunctional benefits. So, why are we not treating nature as a critical infrastructure? So another one is recognizing nature as an asset class, you know, which would involve mapping these ecosystems, uh, putting nature on an asset register, managing them like long-term infrastructure, investing in its maintenance. And often natural solutions, I think, are more kind of cost-effective than traditional engineering because a traditional gray infrastructure can give you just one function, but nature gives you multiple functions, and especially in a resource-constrained world, we have to start looking at those multiple funding ports. Uh, so I think, and I would say like there is an economic evidence which supports this approach. Uh, in 2023, UK ecosystem services were valued at 1.6 trillion pounds, with nature-related recreation was generating 10 billion pounds annually, and health benefits from time in nature contributed to 508 billion. So you could see there are big figures. So to scale investment, clear metrics are needed. So, and I think we we sometimes are not connecting these things. Uh, we know there is value. We know wherever we have nature, those properties are sold at premiums. So nature has a lot of value. We just don't have the operating and financial models geared up to show that value. And when you talk about built environment in my presidency, that's what I was really championing, and I continue to champion now is uh we have to really think hard about why we are building, where we're building, and how we are building. It's almost like following a hierarchy, first managing where we already have access assets and you know, really kind of doing a thorough case of asset management, then retrofitting solutions. And if you if you do have to build, then really going through the nature-positive, nature-based options and exhausting all that, and then going with hybrid green and gray approaches. And I remember in Arcadis, we had a project in the Netherlands where we blended that. We had a flood defense, and under that was a parking lot. So, you know, if you're creative and smart, you can come up with a blended approach and only then go for a purely gray option and then go for modern methods of construction and reducing carbon, low carbon concrete. So that's further down in the hierarchy. So I think the hierarchy is really, really important. And I would say one thing that we should not forget is that public investment is so important to create like a pipeline of nature projects, as we do with gray infrastructure. So in a nutshell, I would say, you know, if the almost like the previous century was all about kind of you know using nature for the benefit of people, it the tra the 21st century has to be really rebuilding it back. Because when we do it, then we really are, you know, uh benefiting people and nature and everyone thrives, what's not like about it. So yeah, so I'm like I can talk about a lot of projects I'm involved in at the moment, but it depends what your next question is. Oh, Steve is on the mute.

The Nature Recovery Playbook

SPEAKER_01 16:55

Yeah, I was going to uh ask you about that, Anusha. Sorry, there's somebody shouting in the background. I was going to ask you about that because I think it would be a lovely segue from that playbook that you just laid out for those there, which is incredibly coherent. And I think that plea for nature as an asset class is well made. And I would love to see a situation where the default mindset in very senior decision makers is that when they invest in a a nature-based solution, they are literally turning on those profits and those benefits and that that growth that will accrue from it. If we could get to that shifting mindset. So I did want to ask you very directly with Plan for Earth and what you're doing now, you know, what's your what's on your to-do list at the moment to get this rethink happening and embedding this nature first approach in the built environment and infrastructure? What are you up to right now?

SPEAKER_03 17:47

No, thanks, Steve. So I'll just quickly tell you you so when uh so every president has a presidential theme. So my theme in um IC was in making connections for a nature and people-positive world, to put it very simply. So my whole aim was to kind of really shift focus of our civil and infrastructure community to kind of work collaboratively, genuinely work collaboratory across sectors and you know, in geographies and generations to kind of deliver those sustainable, resilient solutions. And and this whole thing, and I'm quite heartened to see since my presidency, my LinkedIn is kind of flooded with people pushing the nature positive agenda and finding ways to mainstream it. So, and I've had so many people come to me saying how their mindset has shifted. And I really want to build on that in through my Plum for Earth. Because I know through the you know, the one-to-one conversations I've had or the sessions I've been to, roundtables, I've been to across infrastructure, banking, health, local government. And it's very, very clear. And I'm so I feel so positive saying that that you know, people have acknowledged that nature is not at odds with growth. It enables growth and it can be the foundation of that resilience. So my my next round of work is really to make sure that it is, it translates into projects which are happening. Whether it's new projects where you're planning, or whether it's current projects, regardless of which phase they're in, I want to bring that thinking in because I know when you talk one-to-one to people, people understand that. And and also get them to question what they're doing and get them to understand how are you connecting with the whole wider system? Have you looked at opportunities to talk to nature and finance people? So, for example, you know, some of the initiatives that I started as president was how do you get different built environment institutions, the presidents together? But since my presidency ended, I've created that from a presidential forum to a climate and nature forum. And our agenda is to kind of, you know, work collectively as built environment institutions to further the nature positive agenda. So that's one. The second is about how do we get HF Treasury's green book, which has been revised recently, which has an enabling nature as capital, natural capital, and it has started valuing it. But I know for sure that an engineer or an ecologist, uh, someone specially who doesn't understand and sometimes can get really overwhelmed with too many terminologies and too many models and frameworks. So I'm leading a group, a cross-sector group, where we're trying to see if we could come up with a very simple practitioner guidance. So which is going to be a simple playbook so everyone can then start implementing it. And the third one, which I'm doing, is I'm leading a group, and I'm, you know, I hope it gets approved, but I'm I'm fingers crossed, it's almost there, is about we have a clause in new engineering contract where all the procurement happens. How do you get at the moment it has X29 clause, which primarily talks just about climate? So we are I've set up this group, a working group. So we have got nature and climate in the procurement clauses. So at Plan for Earth, as I start talking to clients which have started, is bringing this thinking into projects and mainstreaming it and making it business as usual. And that's what my agenda is, and that's what my business is. It's not just talking about it, it's connecting policy with implementable projects. And some of the questions that might come off it, we might not have an answer, and it's still complex, sending it to the research institutions and for them, because I know they crave for real-world examples where they want to research. So, you know, I feel like I'm a connector who has had, I've seen the depth of operations of where problems lie, where we're not, we talk a lot in jargons. How do you simplify things? To my head is also in the policy. For example, I'm a trustee with Green Alliance to make sure that I tell the policy people where the actual blockers are. Ground are. So I feel I'm that, you know, the the middle person who's trying to bring these two worlds together.

SPEAKER_02 22:06

Anusha, you're amazing. It's like theory and practice all together in one package, named Anusha.

SPEAKER_03 22:15

I don't do it alone, Damla. I've got a five of amazing people, Pashle people who have supported me. I just send an email and I'm I'm so humbled at how people have really kind of drawn towards my vision. And you know, I I do this because so many people out there are supporting me. Seriously. And even this podcast, the very fact that you're giving me a platform to speak about all these things is so helpful. I'm so grateful.

SPEAKER_02 22:41

Thank you actually for being with us. So I'm gonna pick that beautiful brain of yours for another matter. You know, it's gonna be COP31 in Turkey this year. The action comes here, and you have attended to many COPs. What do you see? How the agenda will form in this COP, do you think?

Nature As Critical Infrastructure

SPEAKER_03 23:01

No, good question, Damlan. I would say that, you know, I I started going to COP since COP26, which was in Glasgow. And I think obviously the landmark COP was COP21, which kind of set the Paris Agreement. But in between, I I can't really say much about what happened, but since I've started attending. So COP26, you know, it kind of really kind of brought the urgency and escalation in Glasgow and it set the targets really clearly and the rules. Then we had COP27 and Sharmul Sheikh in Egypt. And if I had to take one thing that it did really well, was it created that first loss and damage fund. That's a different matter whether that fund is operated at the moment. I hope it is in a few bits and pieces, but not at the scale what was the ambition, especially for vulnerable countries. Then came COP28 in Dubai, which really sounded the alarm that you know pledges aren't enough. And there was a huge work done on nature, especially with Her Excellency Razan, who's the president of IUC. And so she really kind of drove that nature agenda at COP28. And COP29 in Baku, I think it talked a lot about, you know, triple the headline climate finance and advance some of the carbon markets, but but in there's a lot to be done. I mean, there's a lot of talk on climate finance. So, you know, they talk of gaps and equity issues. So I'm really hoping, and that is the plan from what I'm reading in Turkey, is about, you know, with all the agendas and talking and setting frameworks, it should be a COP that really kind of defines delivery, where delivery matters. So I'm hoping it focuses on, you know, absolutely cutting emissions, phasing out for fossil fuels, and actually saying it aloud, mobilizing these trillions in climate finance, scaling adaptation and resilience, and restoring ecosystems. Because I feel the previous COPs have laid the groundwork, and COP 31 will hopefully show if the world can turn promises into real-world action before the climate crisis accelerates further. And it might seem quite impossible considering the world scenario at the moment. It doesn't seem like this will happen. But what gives me hope is there is also people, there are also people who are realizing that this is getting even worse than how it is. And I'm hoping at COP31, people will start getting almost out of the politics zone and into the real, you know, what is good for people and what is good for themselves and the future generations. I hope I this is my hope. I don't know whether that will happen. I hope COP31 is a really spiritual test and check on are we being true to ourselves. And I really hope whoever attends COP31, there is a session on on getting that you know litmus test of is this is this going to be another just stock or are we going to actually move the needle on delivery?

SPEAKER_01 26:22

So so yeah, uh in many ways a really high-stakes COP. So uh and so and obviously a high-stakes cop in Turkey, Damla.

SPEAKER_02 26:33

So this is all on you to make this are gonna be there all on.

SPEAKER_01 26:39

No, I do think I also think uh November this year will be so fascinating as well with the American midterm elections, and and I think we'll we'll know I think we'll know better the way that the global conflict scenarios have panned out. So I think later this year will be truly fascinating. And as you say, Anousha, there'll almost be a sort of global spiritual reckoning for humankind. And yeah, really fascinating. We're almost at the end. Damla, I'm going to run over a tiny little bit. I hope that's because I did want to ask this question, and which is back to you personally, really, Anusha, as an engineer and a woman of colour, and your journey through to your presidency, which was groundbreaking. So there's a huge need to get more talented people to choose a career path like yours. So if you don't mind, really briefly, what would be your pitch to somebody who might be thinking of following in your steps?

Embedding Nature In Policy And Procurement

SPEAKER_03 27:26

Yeah. I would say, Steve, you know, yes, I'm an engineer, but as my career has evolved, I think it's gone beyond engineering. So I think my pitch would be if you want a career that kind of combines the precision of an engineer with the impact of a diplomat, this is it. Or what I mean is you'll be managing if you want to manage the only resource that has no substitute. You know, if you want to secure the, I think the figure is 58 trillion, it provides to global economy. And no surprise, I'm talking about nature. Uh, while ensuring that, you know, no child goes thirsty and we have a thriving ecosystem where we can we can we can feel happy spiritually, physically, and and have good health, this is the profession for you. And and I truly mean that because, you know, you're not just solving abstract problems, you're protecting rivers, you're restoring forests, you're ensuring communities have clean water, helping ecosystems recover. And you know what I love about the time in history where we are is on one hand, we're almost in that junction where we have started to realize how we were meant to live with nature, how the indigenous, you know, whether it's water management practices or, you know, indigenous practices of really using nature as an engineer and not tampering with it, is on one side. And on the other side, we have AI, drones, digital mapping, you know, all sophisticated technology. If you're really clever, this is the time how we can bring it all together for the benefit of people and the thriving ecosystems and you know, the voiceless species we share the planet with. So I just feel this is a time where you're bringing connections around engineering with environment and nature and health, but on the other hand, you're bringing connections with engineering, with finance, leadership, diplomacy to the table, and bridging communications and bringing that, you know, the storytelling part of it. It's the next I feel this is an exciting time where yes, data is very, very important, but it's data and storytelling. Actually being honest about what is working, what lives have you transformed, what ecosystems have you regenerated, and what that hasn't had had an impact on people's health and well-being. So I think it's about, you know, if you want a career where your work actually may changes the world, this is it. And I want to say that you won't just have a job, you will be part of this movement, almost like a regenerative movement, a revolution where the future generations, you know, when you look back on and say that, you know, they they will say that we didn't just talk about the crisis, we actually acted in a very simple way. Bold and passionate. So what I hear is be bold, be passionate. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think everyone plays a part, Dhamma. Like we don't know, I don't have all the answers, but it's that jigsaw puzzle. Each of us brings in that unique perspective. But that's why I keep coming back to my presidential theme. As long as you keep people, all types of people, all abilities, diverse, regardless of color, creed, and everything, and nature at the heart of whether you're a financier, whether you're a lawyer, whether you're a doctor, you're an engineer, I don't think you'll you'll go wrong. And if you have that right intention, everything else is noise, I feel. Just go ahead, find your tribe.

SPEAKER_02 30:59

Beautiful. Right intentions. So I have to jump to our final question because I'm so sorry, but we ran out of time, and I stayed when this happens. So our network is ironically called Do Not Smile, because we need to make sustainability a subject that brings happiness into the world. So, what object, place, or person always makes you smile?

SPEAKER_03 31:25

Good. I think my husband, I would say. My husband, yes, because he is he's the he's the pillar behind whatever I do. You know, he just brings a smile, and he's a marketeer, and he he comes up with such questions or such challenges that really pushes me to do better. And and and plus, he does it in such an effortless way, which is which is so nice. And uh, yeah, he brings a smile to my face.

SPEAKER_01 31:54

That's beautiful. There's a whole lot of love going on right now. This is this is probably the most love-drenched podcast ending we've had, Tamisha. That's beautiful. Well, listen, it's been absolutely amazing talking to you, um, as ever, and inspiring. And and we could go on. We need to go more into water. I'd love for us to tackle find them. So let's do this again when we get our chance. But otherwise, it's just been a great conversation. So, Damler, Gina, wrap us up.

SPEAKER_03 32:23

Thank you, Stephen Damler. I'd love to meet you in person, Damla. Me too, Anusha.

SPEAKER_02 32:28

So thanks to everyone who has listened to our good guys podcast, brought to you by the Do Not Smile Network of Agencies.

SPEAKER_01 32:35

And make sure you listen to future episodes where we'll be talking to more amazing people about how we can all work together to create a more sustainable and regenerative future. So, Damler Anisha, see you soon.

SPEAKER_03 32:46

Bye. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_00 32:51

Goodgeist. A podcast series on sustainability hosted by Damla Eusler and Steve Connor. Brought to you by the DNS Network.