GoodGeist
A podcast on sustainability, hosted by Damla Özlüer and Steve Connor, brought to you by the DNS Network. Looking at sustainability issues, communications, and featuring global guests from a wide variety of sectors such as business, NGOs and government.
GoodGeist
Our Future Homes, Our Future Heritage, with Dr. Banu Pekol
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
In this episode we sit down with the amazing urbanist and cultural heritage expert Dr Banu Pekol to rethink our notion of 'home' as a human right, as a store of memory, and as a foundation for belonging. From Istanbul’s Sulukule to Cape Town’s District Six, Banu analyses how, when housing policy ignores people, renewal becomes removal and communities become museums while lives are uprooted.
She maps out for us a clear and compelling, five-part agenda for the future of our homes. First, prevent displacement, because losing your home collapses health, education, safety, and livelihood. Second, pursue fair decarbonisation: cut emissions without pushing retrofit costs onto those least able to pay. Third, prioritise maintenance, repair, and reuse—the future of housing is already built, and repair protects both carbon and community. Fourth, adopt mediation-first governance that treats conflict as normal and useful; pre-filing eviction programmes show how early dialogue prevents harm. Fifth, design with candour about power: architecture is never neutral, so participation must be a design requirement, not a tick-box.
We also confront climate risk to cultural heritage, from Venice’s rising tides to Timbuktu’s desertification, and explore practical adaptation that serves living cities. Throughout, Banu returns to a simple truth: homes are not just assets. They hold routines, relationships, and identity. Repair before you replace. Protect people before postcards. Build systems where tenants, caretakers, and children are partners in care.
Follow GoodGeist for more episodes on sustainability, communications and how creativity can help make the world a better place.
Welcome & Guest Introduction
SPEAKER_03Goodgeist. A podcast series on sustainability. Hosted by Damla Eusler and Steve Connor. Brought to you by the DNS Network.
SPEAKER_01Hello, hello everyone. You are listening to Good Guys, the message on sustainability, which is brought to you by the DNS Network, the global network of agencies dedicated to making the world a better place. This is Damlo from Mira Agency Istanbul and This is Steve from Creative Concern in Manchester.
SPEAKER_00This podcast series explores global sustainability issues, how they're communicated, and what creativity can do to make positive change happen.
SPEAKER_01So in this episode, we're going to talk to Dr. Bano Pekolt, an urban transformation and cultural heritage expert working at the intersection of architecture, peace building, and social innovation. For over a decade, Bano explored how the built environment can foster dialogue, justice, and civic trust in cities shaped by conflict or transition.
SPEAKER_00So Banu has led initiatives that link sustainability, social cohesion, and the future of urban living at the BMW Foundation. And earlier at the Burkhoff Foundation, she focused on intercultural and interreligious conflict resolution, helping communities navigate their shared yet often contested heritage. Recognitions for her work include awards from the Association Villa de Encore, the Hellenic Ministry of Culture, the Otto Grundler Fund, the Stavros Nyakos Foundation, and the Badas. I can't even say it. There's so many awards, Damler. I've run out of language.
SPEAKER_02Thank you. I'm delighted to be with you.
SPEAKER_00No, I'm really excited about this conversation. So lately you've been ranked in the top three candidates globally for a UN special procedure that's called the Special Rapporteur on Adequate Housing. So we'd love to hear your personal story up until this amazing Oscar nomination moment. How did you come to focus your work on this intersection of heritage and rights?
Banu’s Path To Housing Rights
SPEAKER_02Well, yes, I mean it's it's quite flattering to be one of global candidates. And then I think after that first moment, I really realized that it's more of a responsibility marker than a trophy. And for me, being considered at this level really signaled that the issues I'm talking about are urgent. So I'm quite happy about that. My story is about place in the very basic meaning, I think. I started with cultural heritage preservation, how human settlements, be it cities or rural settlements, remember what gets preserved over time, what doesn't, what gets erased. And then I was basically running into the same question. And it didn't matter which country it was, which community it was, because people, some people were allowed to belong, some people were pushed out. And despite really just wanting to work with architecture, when I started my career, I realized that it's rarely about buildings when you work on cultural heritage, because it's about some people wanting to get power, others wanting to keep it, their identity and dignity. This is a word I use quite a lot when I'm talking about adequate housing, the dignity. Because if you lose your home, you just don't lose shelter. You use your social networks, you lose them, and the ability to plan a future for you, for your family. So that's how I really quite shortly after I was just focusing on architecture, went into a framework that connects human rights and cultural heritage. And so when you look at the numbers, so I have a couple of numbers. So UN agencies estimate that around 2.8 billion people lack access to adequate housing, secure land, and basic services. And that is such a big number, basically, it's something really hard to imagine. So you need to go back to the human lens to stay honest and to realize what it is, I'd say.
SPEAKER_01Wow. Bano, you belong to our tribe. It's the tribe that is always restless and cannot focus on one thing and frame it, but always has to make it better. That's why you're doing this, I suppose.
SPEAKER_02Yes, and it's it's something that I have also experienced in my hometown. You remember Damla, we had we have a whole neighborhood called Sulukula. It was and then they had a renovation project. They spoke about renewal, historic character. But their long-standing Roma community was displaced. So heritage was not a tool, it was not protection. Same thing happened in Cape Town District 6, where people were, thousands of people were removed. And yes, okay, there's a museum, the memory remains, but the living community is they're just dispersed and torn apart. So it's real, it's something that connects people, and we need to be the champions of it.
Displacement, Dignity & The Human Cost
SPEAKER_01That's correct. Bono, you said five priorities critical for the future of our homes: prioritizing crisis and displacement, linking climate action to social equity, maintaining and regenerating homes, focusing on restoration and reuse, and mediation in housing governance. Can you elaborate these a bit for our listeners? Absolutely.
Five Priorities For Our Homes
SPEAKER_02Thanks for asking that. I really mean those five priorities, but as a connected agenda, so they're not five separate slogans. So if you walk through them in a more maybe listener-friendly way, it's first crisis and displacement, and that's first in my priority because losing your home is the fastest way for your rights to collapse. Your health, access to health collapses, education opportunities, your safety collapses, everything, livelihood, and it's an enormous scale. And the UNHCR does these reports, and by mid-2025, last year, 117 million people were forcibly displaced. So imagine the scale of that collapse in people's lives. So it's really not a niche issue. It's not niche, it's very, very structural, you can say. And so when people are displaced, it's it's a human rights failure. And you can't say it's climate, it's because of the climate, it's because you haven't planned and people lose their home. I'm an 80s, 90s kid, so I there's a lot of home references in the music I listen to. And there's this deep purple song, Pictures of Home. Maybe you both know of it. It it and it really links the feeling of home. It's the of somebody for me who has lost their home, where they say, I'm looking at a ghost, it's hard not to sing, of a man I used to be. And I'm just sing it, Banu, sing it. And I'm looking at photos of home. So it really shows that you lose the man you used, the person you used to be. But when you just have photos of your home, not the real house you used to live in. So the next second was, of course, social equity and climate action. And that's because we need to decarbonize housing. It's just really, really important because building and construction are major contributors since forever to global emissions. And we can't find asset transition by raising rents of the citizens or shifting retrofit costs onto tenants with low incomes. Because we then we just swap one crisis to another. So greener homes should benefit everyone, not just the wealthy who can afford it or can show it off in a way. Third, and this is really my first calling in my expertise, and it's maintaining homes. Because when you look at the media, they love these ribbon-cutting new projects. For me, it's not about new, it's about maintaining. And we're really much less good at maintaining than rebuilding. And this neglect is, when you look at it, a human rights, human rights violation. But they're doing really good things in the world. When you uh there are examples which are also not new in Thailand, they did something in 2003 in Ban Hong Kong where it was a community-led upgrading, and they secured tenure, they improved infrastructure. Is that the future of housing is already built? We have the most the majority of those houses. We just have to adapt their use, we have to repair, it's lower carbon, it's socially less disruptive than demolishing and rebuilding. And you also respect the history of people who already live there. It's a no-brainer. So repair before you replace. I can go on forever with this, but it's also really important to say that you know, these buildings, these homes, and I'm just talking about homes. I mean, that we could go on on to bathhouses, schools, and all the other built heritage, they're just not only physical assets, which sadly the financial world looks at them like this. They are our routines, there are relationships, and there are memories, there are lived experiences. So in demolishing, it's it's if you've seen your childhood house being demolished, which happened to me in Istanbul because of urban regeneration, it's what's gone is just not only the walls. I mean, it's an it's not a nice building, but memories are also gone. And then I talk about mediation and housing governance because really damage happens after violations happen. So it's we have to prevent the damage in the first place. Philadelphia does this really well. They pre-file eviction and they in state this negotiation before an eviction can be filed. So it's the mind shift shift. So mediation should be something in the structure, it should be early, and a normal part of governance and housing. So I think I mentioned all four and five. So it's really first protect people from displacement, whether it's in crisis or another urgent state of emergency, decarbonize fairly, maintain and revitalize, regenerate homes, reuse what already exists, and prevent while you're governing. So you could intend to be.
SPEAKER_00I have to say, you well, I am going to lobby hard for you to become the special rapporteur because that is such an incredibly strong framework for action. I may I I feel Damler, we need to turn it into some kind of really gorgeous diagram or infographic for Banu so that she can use it as part of her process. So, Banu, I want to talk a little bit about the kind of, I don't know, to sound academic, I guess, the intersectionality of holistic housing. Because when we talk about sustainable housing, certainly here in the UK, you'll hear people talk about legislation, incentives, how we communicate around it, particularly to homeowners, and then technology solutions. But usually you find that that technological solution part of the dialogue is usually promoted as the easy fix. It's you know almost the first go-to option in terms of housing and and can see in the end can be a bit of a false hope. So, how would you describe uh a more holistic approach to housing solutions?
SPEAKER_02Mm-hmm. So holistic for me is falling, not falling into the trap of thinking that it's just a construction challenge, because that's an easy way to kind of avoid the actual problem. And again, referring to the UN human rights framework, adequate housing is about the right for us, for everyone, to live somewhere in security, in peace and dignity. It doesn't tell you how many rooms you should have, it's about also cultural adequacy. So, meaning housing in whatever form is adequate for us should support our lived identity, not erase it. It should keep us, make us able to continue our cultural practices. So it's really starting with the human outcome, not a building product. And the numbers, again, when you look at it, is it a construction challenge? No, it's about uh providing basic dignity to people. 2.8 billion people currently lack access to adequate housing. And this is a terrible number. So if we build more, we kind of miss the point because people don't only need a shell or a roof above their homes, they need tenure security, they need mobility to get to the places they need to, they need safe services, and of course, protection from exploitation, which is now sadly considered something quite widespread. And everywhere we can look, we see this exploitation of land, really. It's a rent problem. So, yeah, those are examples that show what holistic can look. And in practice, for example, Vienna has a very good long-standing ecosystem for this. They have municipal housing stock, it's quite large, and they support a substantial number of people, uh a number of people who want to live in these. And of course, the lesson is not copy Vienna. Vienna is obviously a rich city, but they have this stable public policy, a long-term financing, and you can you're you can count on the fact that there will be this continuous renewal, that your housing will be affordable and decent. So we we see it in other places too, but it's really a human rights. And so for me, it's like if if we have a checklist, it's this first security ten of tenure, second, affordability and basic services, and access to opportunities that make you make your quality of life adequate again, because adequate is a word which you can adapt to your own standards. So people should stay in their homes and be happy there.
SPEAKER_01I love how you reframe the conversation and bring the dignity into a mechanical urban planning uh space, and that really shifts the minds. And something you did beautifully is stating that architecture is never objective. I know you meant it at a personal level, but it is also true from a broader perspective, when we think of architecture as one of the pillars of economy politics. I mean, from that perspective, how can do you think architecture serves the benefit of all?
Fair Decarbonisation & Maintenance First
SPEAKER_02Uh yes, it's it's a historic fact, also that architecture is never neutral. Look at all the houses, uh rich townhouses, and then the more informal housing historically. And today probably we can all go out today and see a new construction. And what those new constructions decide is who gets the clean air, who gets the light, who lives next to noise, who has access to the new parks or even the transport system. So, really, architecture should serve the benefit of all and not try to pretend to be objective. It should just be transparent. And again, the human rights framing of the UN is very helpful for me here. It isn't about a roof, it's about the right to live somewhere in security and dignity. And again, again, I'll refer to a song, the Peshmo's home. It's just it's just beautiful because it's again about home not being a shell, where they say, Finally, I found that I belong, I'm home. So it's about providing a sense of belonging. I'm home and I belong there. And it's really this statement, I feel, that connects with people. And we see again good examples around the world. In Japan, they did cities for people, Machizuruki, I hope I pronounced that correctly. It's again people-centered, participatory, human security-based frameworks. So my simple answer would be architecture serves us, serves the benefit of all of us, when our rights, when the rights of us and the climate and the our globe's rights are respected, and when participation is a design requirement. And this is something not only for architecture. I think in every process, participation should be designed into the process. It should not be an optional add-on, a feel-good thing and good to have. It should be part of the planning. So people should have a voice in shaping their neighborhoods. And otherwise, how can any outcome serve the people who live there? Because they are the people who actually live in it every day. They see the trees they hit, they see the animals living in their streets. So yeah, good architecture can never be neutral. It should just be irresponsible in a way.
SPEAKER_00Oh. Danu, that's perfect. I we I have to say, uh, Damler, we should create a small, I don't know whether we can do this on our podcast platforms, but we've had, I think we've now had three or four of these conversations, Banu, where we've particularly talked with architects and planners about the the hum the the very human side to the architectural process and how it becomes. I know co-design is a word that loads of people use, but how you have a genuinely participatory approach is it's a really important piece of work. But do you mind very much if I move us on to something and I think it's really fascinating? I think last year I remember there was a report that came out listing the 17 most important heritage cultural heritage sites in Europe that were at risk from shifts in climate, and and that could be everything from sea level rise through to temperature change making the buildings themselves inviable. And I think you you also specialise in this sort of area of sustainable restoration for cultural heritage. And in fact, you're one of the founders of the Association for Protection of Cultural Heritage. And because I've Googled your background, at one point you were here in the UK working for Save Britain's Heritage, I think. So uh that you were responsible for the first energy restorate energy efficient restoration project in Mardana. Can you tell us a little bit more about the climate-related risks associated with cultural heritage sites and what the tensions are there in addressing it?
SPEAKER_02Mm-hmm. So maybe it's best to give a couple of examples so the listeners can visualize. And I'll start with the very obvious that I think a lot of people would recognize is that's Venice. And UNESCO is very explicit on this: that the high water really threatens the integrity of the site. It's uh it's not just the building, it's the whole site. And the frequency and intensity of tides increasing, they're damaging the whole uh whole of Venice. So there are increasing major infrastructure responses, like the mobile floodgates. But when you look at the deeper lesson, we have to protect the living city. So that's what I always say. Like, it's not about the postcard. It's, I mean, protecting the postcard is something that's easier to do because it's just a corner and it doesn't have the people in it, usually postcards. It has this effect like, you know, looking at the photos of the lure where nobody's there around the pool. But then that really means pushing all the residents out. And then we wouldn't have really preserved Venice as a place of life. It's it's a shell. And who, I mean, heritage preservation. I always say that it's not about preserving pretty things at all. Same thing when we look about at maybe we can think of the opposite of water. So uh Timbuktu would be because we have, of course, there is conflict-related destruction, but then it's becoming a desert. So it's a climate crisis mix. You have a lot of destruction there, manuscripts, mausoleums, but also people because of the changing climates, we need local knowledge, new training of Masons. So in that sense, I really also would like to stress here the that safeguarding heritage can also be a part of peace building and recover the community because they get new jobs. And it's we really can't wait for till after the crisis. That's something we're doing right now, firefighting a lot, but also prevention has thankfully really surfaced in the recent years as something that is really more effective than responding after something. So really the practical takeaway, I think, for this is that treating heritage protection separate from climate adaptation, separate from housing rights is something we have to stop. They're not separate, and we have to prioritize staying in place conditions as much as possible. Stability, whether it's the heritage site or a buffer zone. And yes, it's culture and identity is part of this safe housing in a way.
Homes As Memory, Not Assets
SPEAKER_00And just to just to come back on that, if that's all right, Dammer, just for a sec. Daniel, what do you feel? How do you feel about the? I think there's a really interesting tension in play, isn't there, when you look at the projected climate scenarios for later this century. And then you look at heritage buildings in particular and realize that we need to adapt them to make sure that they can withstand those temperature changes, different patterns of rainfall, increased wind and storm likelihood. But yet, certainly here in the UK, our listing legislation and the measures we have in place to protect those buildings almost make a pathway to adaptation more difficult. And I think it calls into question almost as what value we set on certain types of heritage and how we make some really pragmatic decisions around how we preserve some form of that heritage to make sure we don't lose it for future generations.
SPEAKER_02That is, especially for countries which have a huge existing building stock, which is still being used, like the UK, it's it's something very it's not imminent, it's there. And there are some very practical changes that are being implemented, like changing the drain pipes, so making them wider to adapt to heavier rainfall, but also to raise awareness in the community that simple uh maintenance and repair measures can make a huge difference because really the homeowners, the tenants, the people who use these buildings are the first to recognize rising damp, any cracks, anything that may in the long term become a larger liability. So it's it's again this bringing in the community, but how would you bring them in if they don't have the knowledge? And this is something I'm also in the process of planning at the moment. It's raising awareness of maintenance not only for people who live in our tenants in historic buildings or work in them, for example, in a historic library, but also school children, because there are a lot of schools which are historic when you think of it. And when they know, when they can notice like window needs winterproofing. So when they kind of think of this climate adaptation in historic neighborhoods as something very inherent and second nature, I think we will have really moved a step further. But then there's the issue of, of course, financing for this, because knowing something from our end as tenants or people living in this environment is one thing. But of course, there is we need financing that supports repair, reuse, retrofits, but also stabilizing costs for people who use it. So then again, I'm stepping into the housing policy and climate policy arena which we should pull in the same direction.
Holistic Housing Beyond Tech Fixes
SPEAKER_01So when when you step in there, you are also stepping in the arena of conflict. So I want to ask you one question. I know we're running a bit running out of time, but I really want to ask this one. You're trained in mediation. What would you change if we designed housing and public space as if conflict is normal, not a failure?
SPEAKER_02Hmm. I like, I mean, the way you ask it because we change the frame then. Because most cities treat or human settlements treat conflict as a mistake. It's as, oh, something went wrong, so there's a conflict. But as a mediator, you look at it differently. It's information for you. A conflict tells you where the pressure is, who feels unheard, what is being unspoken. So you listen in a different way when you see a conflict. And sitting in difficult conversations, again, throughout my experiences, where it's whether it's heritage sites, housing projects with political tensions, people are always afraid of losing something important. So it's conflict means people care. So conflict is good. The thing I don't want is when people stop speaking. And this is where, again, working in heritage, housing, and even diplomacy overlaps. We have to, I mean, imperfect projects can succeed because people are respected and involved and the conflict is mediated. So again, conflict literate literate design is something, you know, as I said, community-based design is something quite practical. And I always assume that a disagreement will happen. And I care about this deeply because I think our settlements are stronger when we don't shy away, when we don't fear tension. We we can lean into it. It's fine. We have conflict in everyday life. It isn't destructive, it's it's how we grow. It's an opportunity to grow and to change for the good.
SPEAKER_00Goodness me. Banner, that I have to say that's that's blown my mind a little bit a little bit because the um I've never heard it put so succinctly that conflict means we care. I mean, that's a really that's a really powerful thought to carry a wave from this conversation. Uh I mean, absolutely brilliant. The and me the idea of that conflict leading to stronger outcomes and better outcomes for everybody is just really powerful. Banu, thank you so much. I I'm I'm afraid it's going to have to be time for our final question. Damla, I know you'd like to keep going on this one, but I am gonna ask our final question, Banu, which is our network is ironically called do not smile, because we need to make sustainability a subject that brings happiness into the world. So, what object, place, or person always makes you smile?
SPEAKER_02I was curious about the name, so thanks for the explanation. I think it's a person. It's it's actually the people who do all the invisible work in wherever we live. It's kind of the caretaker who cleans the stairwell in the apartment building I live in before sunrise. It's it's the people who make sure our infrastructure runs and prevent delays on our public service, the people who repair something instead of replacing and we don't see them. So this daily practice of care, it's not policy, it's people.
SPEAKER_00Oh, that's beautiful. Honestly, uh there I've got so many t-shirt slogans coming out of this conversation that I need to just immediately execute. So it's policy, it's people not policy. Amazing. It's been so good talking to you, Benna. And I I really hope we get a chance to talk again. I think we'll have to do another episode with you for sure. So, Damler, would you like to wrap it up?
SPEAKER_01Of course. So, thanks to everyone who has listened to our good guys podcast brought to you by the Do Not Smile Network of Agencies.
SPEAKER_00And make sure you listen to future episodes where we'll be talking to more amazing people about how we can all work together to create a more sustainable and I have to say adequate future, Daniel. See you both soon.
SPEAKER_03Thank you. A podcast series on sustainability, hosted by Damla Auzuer and Steve Connor. Brought to you by the DNS Network.
