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GoodGeist
A podcast on sustainability, hosted by Damla Özlüer and Steve Connor, brought to you by the DNS Network. Looking at sustainability issues, communications, and featuring global guests from a wide variety of sectors such as business, NGOs and government.
GoodGeist
The Creative Truth, with Steve Mayer
Want a sustainability claim that inspires without inviting a regulator into your inbox? We sit down with Steve Meyer, director of Carbon Blue Solutions, to explore how.
From mangrove forests and seagrass meadows to desert halophytes, Steve first of all explains why blue carbon stores CO2 for millennia and how that changes the maths on offsets, resilience, and coastal protection.
Then we shift to the communications frontier and EcoApprase, an AI-assisted tool that scores green claims on clarity, evidence, scope, and risk. It flags risky phrases like planet-friendly and net zero without boundaries, offers practical rewrites, and stays current with fast-moving case law so marketers can publish with confidence.
We talk with Steve about how, across the UK, EU, US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and India, we see the same pattern: bold sustainability stories need proof, baselines, and clear KPIs. India’s rapid enforcement and real-world pollution pressures are accelerating adoption, while “recyclable” claims face a tougher test when local facilities don’t exist. The message is simple: creativity thrives under discipline, and defensible claims help teams avoid both greenwashing and greenhushing.
And along the way, Steve shares what keeps him motivated—watching genuine builders get the backing to scale solutions that matter.
Follow GoodGeist for more episodes on sustainability, communications and how creativity can help make the world a better place.
A podcast series on sustainability hosted by Damlo Ozberg and Steve Connor.
SPEAKER_01:Hello, hello everyone. You are listening to Good Guides The Message on Sustainability, which is brought to you by the DNS Network, the global network of agencies dedicated to making the world a better place. This is Dana from Middle Agency Standard and This is Steve from Creative Keystein in Manchester.
SPEAKER_02:This podcast series exposed global sustainability issues how they communicated more creativity and data to make positive change happen.
SPEAKER_01:So in this episode, we are going to talk to Steve Meyer, director and the public face of Carbon Blue Solutions, focused on deploying scalable, nature-based infrastructure to combat desertification and expand blue carbon things. Carbon Blue Solutions is a platform for nature-based technologies that combine long-term carbon removal with rapid environmental response.
SPEAKER_02:At the moment, Steve is focused on two major projects that we're going to dive into. Mainly we're going to talk about EcoPrace.com and this AI-assisted green claims checker that looks at sustainability communications against emerging anti-greenwashing rules in the UK, EU, US, India, and beyond, which sounds fascinating. And one reason why this podcast is so perfect. Steve's also got OasisCone.com, a patent pending system for desert afforestation and halo fight planting, which sounds really, really technological and clever. But both are really ambitious projects, to be honest. But today we're going to focus on my co-play. So Steve, thank you so much for joining Daniel and myself.
SPEAKER_03:Thank you for inviting me.
SPEAKER_01:It is great to have you with us today, Steve. And I'm so sorry about my voice. It's a bit craggy, but I'm covering. So we have always loved to hear a bit of a personal story. So how did you come to found carbon polluted solutions and work in sustainable solutions?
SPEAKER_03:Well well, it it it wasn't sort of a career path in the early years. I was semi-retired, I would say, a number of years ago. And I was wondering and looking at the sustainability environment, the environment in general. And I I kept wondering why there was this disconnect between economic logic and real solutions. And I was reading different stories and articles and releases and and I got fascinated by blue carbon and the the nature around it. And so we sort of started to dig into it. And I wanted to work on things that had scale or could be scaled, uh, where we could align market and planet and and to bring a a business logic to the environment. So in other words, bring the boardroom to the environment and the environment to the boardroom. So that was really my sort of interest, and we started to dig into mangroves, stalk markets, seagrasses, which are the three main areas of of uh uh blue carbon. What we looked at was old science. Uh we we read a lot um this is a few years ago, we studied a lot, and we said, well, this is very interesting. There the the halophyte, which is a a cot or a a mangrove poured into the halobite category, will grow in saline environments. And we found old times papers where they had proved that you could grow haliphytes without fresh water. And haliphite, or mangroves particularly, have always lived in bracket water and the run-off from uh fresh water brought with it hot bait iron, and those were the elements that were basically missing from a planting environment that didn't have fresh water. So so in other words, i the the the saline water was was supplemented with the nutrients from the run-off. And so there were studies on planting mangroves in desert locations and uh introducing the elements that were missing, the phosphate, the iron, etc. And so then we took that a little bit further and we studied it a little bit more, and we came up with the oasis cone, which was a means by which we could plant paliphite subterranean, if you like, in a cone that allowed them to reach the subsurface saline water level and supplement the the rotative planting with the nutrients required. And that didn't require fresh water. So it became very, very interesting, and we created a IP out of that. I'm sorry, I'm probably boring everybody. No, no, no.
SPEAKER_02:I think it's fascinating too, because it makes me, I'm sure people wonder, have you got are you like a serial inventor? Are you just like permanently looking at incredible technologies and what they could deliver? Is this like is this number 37 for you or something?
SPEAKER_03:Well, no, it's more about innovation. Well, in in many respects, I think it it it's a creative approach, thinking outside of the box. And and so I think if you're sort of entrepreneurial, you have a creative mindset and you think out of the box and you don't accept this is that and that's why, you can you can do a lot. And there's a great many ideas that have never come to fruition through a lack of business acumen or the ability to promote them. And we were taking old science and and actually proven science and actually tweaking it and then looking at it from a different perspective, saying, How can we fit this into that? And how can we do this and that? And and and and that became it becomes very challenging and very interesting. And you sort of you're sitting there, you know, people look at you strangely because you've just got a blank look on your face, but you're deconforced about all these things you've read, and you come up with these ideas. And and as a team, we sort of discuss them and we we get excited by them. So that's really how we sort of got into it, and then we sort of moved into seagrass meadows and how we could develop those as a uh as an economic force as a carbon sink and actually uh provide uh a human capital as well, and you know, implanting and creating uh environments around them. So that's sort of how it all could have developed out a few years ago. And we've been plodding away at that, making proposals to different governments. Uh one of the biggest problems with seagrass meadows and even mangrove installations is that the coastline and the seabed is generally government controlled, and there's a great deal of red paint that goes along with that. And unfortunately, most governments, regardless of their public-facing comments, are really working on election cycles. So if they're concerned about a four-year election and a seagrass meadow doesn't really come to fruition and produce a financial award until say year seven to ten, they're not really that interested. Publicly they are, privately, we've seen a different face.
SPEAKER_02:So yeah, it's been a bit of a challenge. So long question, Steve. I mean, before we get into eco-apraise, I want to talk about that, but just for anybody who hasn't encountered blue carbon, because given the fact that we're a sustainability podcast, we hope all of everybody has. Of course they have, but people will know about tree planting to offset carbon offsets. But blue carbon is the sort of seagrass, mangroves, that portfolio of nature-based solutions that in many cases they absorb carbon at a much higher level, don't they, than planting trees, for example?
SPEAKER_03:Absolutely. The the questation rate in mangroves can be ten times greater than that of a chest field forest. So it it it's a significant carbon sink. And they store the carbon for a millennia. Where uh the conventional tree, for example, i is like a lung and it breathes in and breathes out and dispels carbon, which most people don't seem to know, every 40 or 50 years. So it's sort of breathing in and breathing out, whereas the mangrove and the seagrass are carbon thinks, and they could literally draw it into the root structure. So it's uh it's quite exciting in terms of the opportunity, and it's part of looking at how nature has created all of these amazing kinnadies that work together in unison to combat all of the problems we have. And and unfortunately, people aren't aware or they're not focused on them, and then you know, it's not as sexy as planting a tree for a dollar, and you know that kind of thing.
SPEAKER_02:So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, for the record, Steve, I think blue carbon is sexy. So let's just get that out of the way. Yes, and we sexy, hugely frustrated. So let's let's get on to eco-apraise, because that's that's gonna be really uh really pertinent uh to certainly the work that we our network of agencies do, because we are involved in loads of green claims campaigns and and loads of ESG type reporting. So so before we talk about this tool that you're developing, that you've developed and have that you've developed, and on your website for it, there's a really cool headline that says Truth in Environmental Claims, the New Reality. And before we d delve into it, and because you're using tech and AI to look at it, what how do you feel? Where where are we in this era of truth being told in a post-truth age that's sort of breaking out in the comms space? What do you feel about sort of even the idea of truth at the moment? Because it's really troubled, it's really tricky territory to work with in, isn't it?
SPEAKER_03:Well, I mean, that that's the interesting thing, and this is why we feel it very timely, because I think we're entering an era where truth has to be operational, not just moral. The post-truth vibe still exists, but regulators and consumers are raising the cost of vague or inflated claims. So the new reality is you can still tell ambitious sustainability stories, but you need proof, boundaries, and precision. And in the last couple of years there's been tremendous legislation or enforcement action. The significant penalties and fine. And this is redating the environmental and public relations people. We're getting more and more requests for reviews of documents because a lot of these people aren't genuinely trying to mislead, but it's become part of a uh a a game where if they're not misleading, they're being hushed. So uh you know, i they they want to still show they're in the game, but they they they're they're fearful of the regulators, and the the the reality of that uh in the UK can be as much as a ten percent fine of your global turnover. This is a significant um hammer. And the these these these these new rules, I mean uh the the EU uh commented in September of 2026. India is incredibly active right now. They had a a new guideline finalized in October 24, and they're they're issuing heavy penalties, and even in extreme cases, there's the the threat of criminal prosecution. So, you know, Canada also this year do finalize their private right of action. So there's there's a lot of a lot of jurisdictions that are coming in to say, look, we're not happy about this, we're not gonna put up with this, we need change. And I guess that's consumer-driven, because there's a lot of people out there that are actually asking questions. Thank goodness. You know, who would say, you know, what does that mean? You see a leaf on a box and it says 100% recyclable. What does that mean? Or or fully sustainable or recycled, or and and people really don't know what they mean. And in a lot of cases, they don't mean very much. So we do need regulation, and I'm delighted to see it coming in to actually clear the wood from the trees so we actually get truth. And that's all this is about. We're not trying to at least think we're trying to give people a an opportunity to tell their story in a truthful, uh clear, concise way, and that's how eco-appraiser was born. We were we were seeing so many false claims and and people weren't paying attention to them. We would even tell people, look, you know, this is technically no good, and they weren't that interested. And then because of the regulations that are developing and introduced, suddenly people are paying attention. And that's very encouraging. I I feel uh I'm really happy to see that we're gonna we're cleaning up, you know, for 20 years the sustainability industry has gone a little bit berserted, a bit a bit like the Wild West. If you can speak uh uh if you can articulate well and if you can write well, then hey, have access.
SPEAKER_01:Before working in the sustainability area, we have worked in heavily regulated communication spaces like pharma, for example. So can we ask the question around creativity versus safety? Do you think there is a dilemma here?
SPEAKER_03:Well, I mean, if we define creativity as exaggeration, I mean how you know the real creative challenge is to say something compelling that's also defensible. I mean, as you mentioned in Pharma, you learn the discipline early. Sustainability is heading that way. The best teams treat compliance as a creative grief and not a constraint. So I I I think uh I I I believe that the the the quality players in the in in the game actually celebrate it and and and don't see it as a constraint. Because if we have a level playing field, uh we're we're all better off.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And so so tell us a bit more about the actual methodology. So you're you you convert statements that are made into a sort of defensible naught to zero, zero to a hundred credibility score, don't you? So t talk us through how eco-apraise works.
SPEAKER_03:Well, we score based on clarity, evidence, scope, and risk figures. We look for measurable claims, define boundaries, uh accessible substantiation, we flag common danger zones like planet-friendly, net zero, uh or vague uh sustainable claims that are unsupported. Then we give paper rewrites so teams can keep the message but reduce exposure. It's a risk-based credibility read, not a legal verdict, but it's designed to help com teams ship with confidence. I mean that's that that's our goal. It is AI as you said, but we uh unless you've got teenage kids, but if you raise teenagers, you you know, I liken AI to a teenager, it's a bit wilk, not always honest, and a bit defiant. And so while we were developing this, we realized very early, and we were the early days of AI, that you had to be incredibly careful with AI because it it's not consistent. Like a teenager, you know, it'll tell you it's done its homework and it happens, you know, and you're like, but you said you had, and it's like, well, you know. So we we we developed a rubric as our scoring method and an algorithm as guardrail so that our scans are consistent, reliable, up to date. We update those every week. We cross-check against uh legislation, well uh not legislation, I'm sorry. We cross-check against recent litigation to see whether any new caveats have come in based on you know common law evolution through case law. And and so we update very consistently and we daily check what our AI is saying to make sure at some point that it's not just like, okay, here's your AI, have at it. We we're very we're very careful that we, you know, that we we know how teenagers can be. So we we we we want to raise a good kid, if you like.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, that's amazing. I've you know, that is one of the best analogies for AI I've heard for ages. And I do have I do have teenagers in the house, so I'm now gonna see them as you know, are sort of downloaded in the house, in the snug, large language model teenager.
SPEAKER_01:So greenwashing is a huge trap in sustainability communications, but another one is green hushing. Sometimes brands and institutions are so afraid to make a mistake, they fall into a complete silence. So, can a coi praise also ease that fear a little bit?
SPEAKER_03:Well, and that's the goal. We're like a QA level. Uh the our goal isn't to scare brands into silence, because that stocks been evolving and trying, and that's how we grow. So we want to give them a safe route to communicate. When you can pressure test wording and tighten evidence, you're far less likely to overcorrect into saying nothing. So yeah, i i we feel that it actually helps people get the message out there in a much safer way. And, you know, like our teenage kids, we want them to go down the street safely and and not zigzag across the road and get run over by a car. You know, this is that's basically what we're doing.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely. So before we I mean, I want to ask about sort of which market you're reaching out to, and I think it's really interesting. Also, I mean, I I think the EU is in a fascinating space at this moment because politically the EU's been a little bit fluid in terms of bringing some of these regulations in. And and you know, some regulation recently has been pushed back at the as part of the Green New Deal in the EU. So it's an interesting marketplace for you to work. But we'll come back to that in a minute. Before we do that, you mentioned there sort of updating your criteria according to new claims that you are coming across. And I just wonder whether I've got a particular one I really hate at the moment. Can I do you mind if I unburden myself and and tell me? So made from ocean plastic. I mean what's wrong with people? It's like, you know, it's like I see it all the time at the moment. And obviously the criteria is it's waste, it's plastic that might have ended up in the ocean if it hasn't been recycled. It's just are there any ones that really bug you? That's one my that's my worst.
SPEAKER_03:You know, I I I the the the ones that really get me are the ones that sort of stick the leaf on boxes and products and and and put eco-friendly. That's uh that really bothers me because it's unsubstantiated, unverified in any way. And these are big companies, some of them. And and they're they're they're they're selling emotions, you know, they're trading off people's emotions. People that do care and do want to make a difference, and they're drawn to those products because of that symbolism, and it simply isn't true. And I was having a conversation with a buddy of mine the other day, and he said, you know, you know, since we talked, I started to look around and think, well, what does that mean? Because people don't question it. They don't they don't automatically say, Well, what does eco-friendly mean and good for the planet mean? And I remember, do you know that British TV show AdPap? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember years ago watching a scene from there that's always stuck with me. The mother says to the daughter, she's selling her these plastic glasses, awful things, and they come in a bag that said kind to trees. And the mother said to the daughter, now how about that? And it says, kind to trees. And the daughter says, How is it kind to trees? And the mother says, Well, it ain't made of wood, is it? But this is kind of the the the crazy. Did you get that? Yep. Yeah. So this is the kind of craziness that we see that that isn't just simple it's just simply nonsense, but it really is as nonsensical as that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, no, like big bottles from the ocean. I know it's absolutely madness. The logo version I really hate because there's loads of them. And the one I really hate is when it's a sort of made of a round with the two hands cupping the the earth as a kind of eco-logo, and it's like, oh that that that's the zip-art thing that you can get for free everywhere. Just slap it on. Oh, that would great. So exactly. The uh so, in terms of the markets that you reach, so currently you're operating EU, India, UK, US, and Canada at the moment. So, do you see any common themes emerging when you look at sustainability communications, the claims that people are making across those borders and cultures? What are the what what are the kind of stories that people are telling at the moment that you come across?
SPEAKER_03:I could also add that we also cover Australia and New Zealand. So Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, UK, US, and EU. So those are the uh markets that we currently have baked into our system. What one of the interesting things you'll probably find about what we've or the data that we've come up with is that India is one of our biggest customers. It it surpasses the EU, the UK. It's quite incredible. We we get more interest from India than we do from every other jurisdiction. And and there that may be because their enforcement is becoming very, very aggressive. And and so they're since October 2024, I think it was, heavy fines and even potential imprisonment for repeat offenders who are deemed criminally minded. So there's really severe consequences, and it seems to be making a difference. But I think it might also be, and we we debate this, that in in India you have the cities where the air is so poor, the quality of air is so poor that they're really feeling these things uh first hand. And when you really live a climate nightmare, if you like, on a daily basis, you do start to pay a lot more attention. And even though we have extreme temperatures in Europe and the UK, and we have flooding and we have different weather events, they're not as extreme as they're experiencing. So I think that and that'd be part of what drives drives them. And I'm sorry, I forgot what your original question was, and I don't think I answered it.
SPEAKER_02:No, well, I was just I was just asking about because you work across all these different jurisdictions and it's and I guess it was really interesting for you. You have the unique opportunity to look at whether there's any commonality of the kind of claims that people are making, and for whether it be New Zealand right away through to India, you know, whether whether you're seeing new came claims coming up or whether they're changing a little bit, and uh if there's any commonality across all those territories.
SPEAKER_03:There's a lot of commonality. Different jurisdictions are picking different things, but they all seem to be funneling into the same area. Currently, recyclability of packaging and and claims of recyclable are very popular in just about all the jurisdictions. Canada took, I think, two or four over a claim of recyclable pods, which was technically true. They were recyclable, but the facilities didn't exist. So if the facilities only exist in major hubs and it's only fifteen percent of your market, then they said they were it was a deceptive advertising crack. So we're we're seeing this sort of like deeper look into uh these claims in a way that you don't necessarily expect because if it is recyclable, well it's recyclable. But no, if you don't have the facility, then it's not, so you can't make that claim. So th that we each of them are sort of picking different ideas within the the genre, but they're all seem to be funneling in the same direction. They're always getting they want scope, they want boundaries, they want baselines, and they want clear KPI. So i i i i it's going in the same direction. Uh and we're getting larger brands coming to us now saying, look, we need a map across the multiple jurisdictions with, you know, show us the highest risk because it's coming anyway. So I think people are accepting that we're moving in that direction across the board.
SPEAKER_01:And our final question on network is ironically called do not smile, because we need to make sustainability a subject that brings happiness into the world. What object, place, or person always makes you smile?
SPEAKER_03:Well, when I see someone who's actually created something that means something and they actually get backing, that is really happy day because we we we see a lot of applause, but we don't see real backing. And so when you see someone that's actually, you know, maybe in their basement or their garage or they've they've developed something and created something that makes a difference to us all, that has a real-world impact, that's positive, and they actually get the wherewithal to take that out and do something with it, that makes me uh that makes me smile. I'm always like, okay, right when I'm feeling oh, there's no point. You know, you say, well, that that really is a good day.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, I love that, Steve. You get you basically when good ideas and good people thrive and get on. That's that's a lovely, lovely thing. Oh, well, listen, it's Steve, it's been so great to hear about eco-praise and about and and now everybody knows about blue carbon as well. It's been a double hit in this podcast episode.
SPEAKER_03:I hope I haven't bored everyone. You've probably got no listeners now.
SPEAKER_02:They're all perfectly they're all not investing in mangroves. Honestly, that's right.
SPEAKER_03:They're probably snoring and like, oh, let's make that guy up already.
SPEAKER_02:Not at all. So listen, I'm gonna wrap this up now. So thanks to everyone who's listened to our good guys podcast brought to you by the Do Not Smile Network of Agencies. And make sure you listen to future episodes where we'll be talking to more amazing people about how we can work together to create a more sustainable future.
SPEAKER_01:So thanks to everyone who has listened to our good guys podcast, even with my voice. And brought to you by the Do Not Smile Network of Agencies.
