GoodGeist
A podcast on sustainability, hosted by Damla Özlüer and Steve Connor, brought to you by the DNS Network. Looking at sustainability issues, communications, and featuring global guests from a wide variety of sectors such as business, NGOs and government.
GoodGeist
Sustainability is Bullsh*t, with Kasper Bjørkskov
In this episode we chat with activist and former architect Kasper Benjamin Reimer Bjørkskov as he shares his journey from major architecture studios to founding No Objectives, a nonprofit using design, marketing, and policy interventions to turn 'minority rights into majority action'.
We dig into playbooks that move the needle: a municipal carbon budget calculator that treats emissions like money, so councils can plan within science‑based limits; Denmark’s (beautifully designed!) Reduction Roadmap, which rallied companies to demand binding caps aligned with the Paris Agreement; and a new method to quantify offsite biodiversity loss in supply chains, paired with obligations to restore the areas harmed.
Along the way, Casper makes the cultural case for aesthetics as strategy. If the next economy looks worse, people will resist it. If it looks and feels better, the centre follows.
The heart of the conversation challenges language that has lost meaning. In a degenerative system breaching planetary boundaries, nothing is “sustainable” in isolation. Sustainability is an outcome, not a pathway. Regeneration is the work: restoring living systems while deepening democracy and shifting power over production.
Listen in and if this episode sparked new thinking, follow the show, share it with a friend who cares about climate and culture, and leave a review to help others find us!
Follow GoodGeist for more episodes on sustainability, communications and how creativity can help make the world a better place.
Goodgeist. A podcast series on sustainability. Hosted by Damla Eusler and Steve Connor. Brought to you by the DNS Network.
SPEAKER_03:Hello, hello everyone. You are listening to Good Guys, the message on sustainability, which is brought to you by the DNS Network, the global network of agencies dedicated to making the world a better place. This is Damler from Mira Agency Istanbul and This is Steve from Creative Concern in Manchester.
SPEAKER_01:This podcast series explores global sustainability issues, how they're communicated, and what creativity can do to make positive change happen.
SPEAKER_03:So in this episode, we're going to talk to activist, writer, and creative consultant Caspar Benjamin Reimer Yorkshow, who is the founder of No Objectives in Copenhagen, a nonprofit research and design agency on a mission to turn minority rights into majority actions.
SPEAKER_01:Excellent. So trained as an architect, Caspar today is focused on making change happen in pursuit of a more sustainable future. And through no objectives, his not-for-profit is integrating marketing techniques with branded activism. Does that sound familiar, Damla? I think it does. Supporting social and environmental causes, making him a perfect guest on our podcast. And heads up, during this podcast, we will say the phrase sustainability is bullshit. So prepare yourselves, people. Casper, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to Damler and myself. Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor to be here. Oh, excellent stuff. So, so Casper, we'll talk about the work and your mission in just a moment. But tell us a bit more about what led you into activism and uh from a start as a trainee architect in Copenhagen. What's the journey been so far?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's it's been I more like stumbled into it more than it was like a direct uh mission of mine. I actually trained as a, as you said, as an architect, and I ended up working for some of these really big corporate firms. Um, one in particular in Denmark that's very big, called Bjage Ingels Group. And I was there and and I always were fascinated with architecture in the sense that what architecture does very well is that at least in in the modern era has been to translate complexity into very simple things. So when you do a hospital, it's actually quite important that you can explain how that hospital works so that you collectively can take the best decisions on on what it's how it should sort of unfold. So I studied there, and then I gradually became more aware of the climate crisis, and I was like saying that this this we're doing something wrong here, and all the narratives of that we were just keeping, we should just keep building, and then eventually we would we would sort of end this. Sort of I couldn't really shake the idea that this was not really how it worked. So I left my job at the corporate office, and then I applied for a new position, and I got that role, and then by a complete coincidence, I the first project I was put on was a project from a Stanford professor that said that he wanted to create the first completely self-sufficient village in the world. And I was sort of pretty fresh out of the academy and my previous job, and it's like, okay, I'll try to undertake this. And then gradually, as I sort of dived into the research, it just, you know, my I went into this rabbit hole and my whole sort of life like changed because I this was the unlearning that I had to do, right? That okay, everything we've been thinking about was completely wrong. And it ended up with us actually delivering on that project. Like we ended up designing a project that was technically 100% feasible in being self-sustainable for 25 families with energy, food, water, and everything on a very small plot, 5,000 square meters, which was kind of a crazy innovation. And then we launched that, and then it went completely viral. So 445 million people view that project, and it sort of propelled that firm I was working at into the next category of uh of big architects. And then I got the choice to run their research into science center as a result of that. And from there, it's just been one steep learning curve on earth system science and and capitalism and neoliberalism and all the systems that are underpinning the system. And then I worked for nine years trying to create systemic change within the industry. And then in January of this year, I decided to take a leap and start a non-for-profit because I could no longer sit by. Even though it was a great position and we had a lot of impact, I was still getting paid by a company that, you know, were trying to deliver on systemic change, but was still part of a capitalist structure. So whatever I got my money from was still a massive amount of new builds and massive amount of exploitation of the globe south. So I decided to take the step forward and say, like, I can use these skills, but in a way that doesn't hurt the environment in the same way. So that's what I did, and I started a not-for-profit that I'm running now.
SPEAKER_03:That is beautiful, Steve. You know that I would love this story, and this also makes me think and hope that there is good things on the other side of that rabbit hole. We have to go through it.
SPEAKER_00:Yes. No, but it is like you know, there's that you have to go through sort of the understanding and the grief, and then comes action, right? So that is just a natural process that we all have to go through, and it's it's about getting to be the midwife of that, basically, to get people to understand that. But I think most importantly, with the reason why it took me so long to get out of the rabbit hole, is that it's very hard to find places to go because you know everyone is entrenched in the system. So I kind of for a very long time looked around seeing if I could be hired at other companies that were sort of living according to those values, but they were I just couldn't find them. So I had to say, like, I'm gonna start it myself instead. So that's how you know I ended up here.
SPEAKER_03:Let's come to that. No objectives. It's about consulting with purpose, advocating for nature, and safeguarding the environment for future generations. So, what are some of your recent projects and what is the difference you are making?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, uh, it's always a good question whether or not the difference that I'm making is. But I have like the reason why I started the non-for-profit is that I wanted to find a way to fund the things that are hard to fund. So I work on two legs, which is uh the consultancy leg, where I help corporations drive systemic shifts. So it's never about consulting their business. So it's not about trying to make our business green because it's typically simply simply think it's impossible. So what I do is that I help them strategically figure out what leverage points they can together as an industry find to enable the shift. So a pretty good example is that I ran a big campaign with a lot of colleagues called Reduction Roadmap in in Denmark, where we were pretty successful that we mobilized the entire Danish building industry. 920 companies spending from small carpenters to the biggest developers in Nordics to ask politicians not to remove legislation, but to like enforce legislation on the entire industry. And that legislation that we asked for was that they kept how much buildings could emit so that we would be in alignment with the Paris Accord. And that meant actually that within a year we would have to slash emissions 50% from the entire industry. And so that was a that's a way that I'm trying to consult now, saying that working for companies like how can we create the systemic shifts or or the needed changes so you can operate within a system that you can actually be proud of? So that's one thing that I work with the municipalities, European Union, developing frameworks and models that they can use. So the latest one that we're releasing on Thursday is the first time ever a CO2 budget calculator that's operationalized in the municipality. So it means that we have taken the budget and calculated down into the municipality. So whatever they use, or what so they know how much budget they have for each year. So it's basically works like a financial budget, but that means that they can plan and see when they take decisions, what does it do for climate budgets and temperature increases? And that's a pretty big game changer for them because what they're doing right now is that they're basically just hoping that it's not as bad as what they usually do. So this is sort of giving them sort of like a budget that they have to stick within to adhere to uh the climate science. And I think that's gonna be quite exciting. So that's one of the tools. And then the last thing that I'm developing with a lot of international organizations is a biodiversity offsite tool, which means that when we produce something in the world, it has a massive uh CO2 footprint, as we all know. But one of the boundaries that we keep forgetting is biodiversity loss. So we actually know from research that we did together with Stockholm Resiliency Center that when we build a building, 95% of the biodiversity loss happens offsite. So it happens in the value chain. But we haven't had any way to quantify that. So together, these amazing scientists created a method for that. And that method I'm now with other scientists trying to operationalize so that we have a good method for enforcing it into law. So when any sort of manufacturer makes a product, you automatically understand how much biodiversity loss, how many areas you destroyed by that product, and then we're trying to make it an obligation that they recover the same amount of area. So, yeah, a lot of different things. And all of that pays for my work, which is an activism where I help movements that don't have any money to scale and get influence. Amazing.
SPEAKER_01:So um, Casper. So I I have to say, I mean, first of all, I need to get you over to Manchester because all of those topics we've been grappling with and the carbon budget that we have for the metropolitan region around Manchester, it does look like that. It's one of those moments where you pull pulled back the curtain and you go, oh shit. We're way off. We're way off. Why don't you do the carbon budget? But the biodiversity question is really interesting because that I'd love to get into that. But the reduction roadmap that you worked on, I think Damler, we I have to send you a link to it because it was it's beautiful. It is there's there's a written version of it, Casper, isn't there? And then there's a kind of a visual version where all of the key points in this reduction roadmap have been turned into these incredible drawings and graphics and infographics. And so I had a question. It's it's bloody brilliant piece of work, by the way. The the the the work of no objectives in particular is crafted with really gorgeous visuals. So great copy, good visuals. It looks like you want to ensure that our just transition to a sustainable future is also a beautiful one. So tell us tell us a bit more about your aesthetic approach.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's it's a it's a very good point, and I think it's a very underutilized point, to be honest. I mean, I am to understand why I ended up in this uh situation. I mean, I of course read Gramci, I and I hope many people know who Anthony Gramsci was a leader of the Communist Party from Italy, imprisoned during uh in the 1930s because of his popularity. And then he said that you know one of the key reasons why we are keeping being locked in the system is because of cultural hegemony. So that the elite creates the optics that you know this is how it's supposed to be, and that we all buy the same story. I mean, capitalism is a great example. We sort of it's been sold as the freedom to choose whatever you want, but in reality, it's the freedom to consume products you don't need, and and you know, the freedom to go into jobs you really don't like, all of those things. But one of the most important things that Gramsci taught me is that we need to break that cultural hegemony. And I do that through media, social media and graphics and and even arts and different ways of communicating. But very quickly, sort of working in architecture, I realized that there was this very weird tendency that when we talked about sustainable architecture, which doesn't exist, but that's what we talked about, and sort of green architecture, it always looked like crap. So the idea was that it had to look like it was sort of reclaimed things that should look like they were reclaimed. And that's a new aesthetic that we had to endure. And I never bought that because I don't simply don't think that people want to live in an uglier world. They want a more beautiful world than the one they had before. So five years ago, I was contacted in my previous job by Velux, a really big manufacturer of Windows, that said, like, we want to create the building of the future. So we want to show that there can be a different way to build. And then together we did an amazing sprint of uh innovation for three years. And one of the key things in that, and then we delivered on this project, which is called the Living Places Project in Copenhagen, which was the lowest emission building in the world in Denmark ever built at market price. And the key difference, and it was it became a huge success, and the key difference between this one, which was much lower than all of the ones that looked like they were really low, was that we designed it around being as beautiful as possible, and it shouldn't look like something people thought was different. It should look like a real home, but just in a much higher quality. And when I when I saw how that really transformed the industry here and how we think about architect, it really became clear that aesthetics are something we need. We need to understand that this, if we want to midwife a new world, it has to be built on a more beautiful version than the old one. And aesthetics are you know the foundation to getting people on board. And I think that that's my work is very much about that understanding that you know when you do use aesthetics and branding and communication, you can do use it for good, and you can actually help drive a much bigger impact. And I think that's really important.
SPEAKER_01:You do Tamla. I'm gonna I'm gonna cry. I'm going to cry. I'm crying now.
SPEAKER_03:Because you found the kindred spirit, right? I'm going to cry.
SPEAKER_00:Disgusting.
SPEAKER_03:Uh you know, sometimes we forget that beauty was one of the keywords of the revolution, so it doesn't have to be ugly. And yeah, I want to cry too, Steve. And to be honest, Grunchi always comes in this podcast. Yeah, yeah. He tied off the third unseen anchor of this podcast. I thought so you summarized it beautifully, but I want to just take it in a nutshell with your work. And your, of course, beautiful visual work is addressing, we'll say for our listeners, a polycrisis of inequalities, climate breakdown, and a global loss of biodiversity, but often returns to economics and in particular the need to challenge neoliberal capitalism. Is this a fair summary? I mean, I know it, it is, but let's talk about this a bit.
SPEAKER_00:No, but it's true. I mean, I think that one of the most important parts to understand is that when we talk marketing, branding, aesthetics, and all of that, I think it's important to understand that the neoliberal or the capitalist system, we always assume that it's sort of a natural progression of us that a system that we had, but that's not at all how it happened. You know, it's a manufactured ideology that we've culturally, sort of globally actually agreed upon, which is the problem. And I think what in that understanding also is the solution. Because if you can manufacture an ideology that can be so widespread, you can do the opposite. You can actually create an understanding that you know what neoliberalism and capitalism do is basically ensure that we are not able to have the power, democratic power that we need. So, what is the counter narrative to this? And that is that we need stronger democracies and we need workers to have the power of means of production. And I think this is the entire point with what we do in aesthetics and art and and communication, that we can help build that story. We can help facilitate because that was that entire story has been built for capitalism, but we need to build that story for the other system that is a more fair and equitable one, right? So I find a lot of solace actually in the fact that this system was created, we can then create a new one. And I think that that's what art and graphics and aesthetics and copywriting and all these things can help build, you know, that alternative vision that gets it out of it. So I very much agree, and this is the problem, you know, neoliberalism and capitalism is what got us into this. I think to be honest, I think that there's a root cause that's a bit deeper, that's harder to grasp because I think that when this, you know, capitalism is a natural outcome of a systemic shift that happens. But I think the re where it happens is that when we got something called lootable surplus, so the moment we were able to cultivate the land and store grain and rice and all these things, it allows us to do something quite profound that changes our entire way of on of being on this planet. Because when you can disconnect from land through surplus, you end up disconnected from the things that you sort of that are governing governing us as a society. So I think a really good example of this is that where do you find most community? You do that in the poorest places on earth because you have no ability to disconnect. So with surplus, that was first grain and all these things, and then it comes into monetary systems with wealth, and we get hierarchies. Now the ultimate form of freedom is being free from other people. So if you're uh very wealthy, you you don't have a you have a private jet where there's no other people, you live in a gated community or big house without anyone else. All of these things. And I think that's sort of the default, is that the way we value surplus and understanding this has created a fundamental fundamental disconnection between nature and between people. So I think to get that back is to and I think that this is where art and and communication is a beautiful medium because they can actually bring us back. That's a way to reconnect each other.
SPEAKER_01:And they can they can punch through the kind of crazy fog of media and social media and algorithms that tell you it's all okay. And and the I loved um if we had time, Damler, Casper's response just then, we could go towards Maslow, we could go off to the cult of the sovereign individual and what they're doing to our fucking planet. But let's not do that.
SPEAKER_03:You will mention the French, right?
SPEAKER_01:Exactly. Well, uh if we brought Derrida into all of this, I would melt down. We can't do that. So the uh and I really loved as well, Casper, on one of your pieces recently, uh really, I think coherently pointed out how when capitalism uh when capitalists are arguing against socialism, if you take away their arguments, they they are all the outcomes of capitalism. So they say, yeah, socialism takes away your freedom, it restricts your choice. It's like hang on a sec. That's you're describing your own fucking system. What the hell is going on? So so on that as well, I should explain to listeners, you they needed to check out your Instagram feed to see all these great provocations. And one recent one, which really reminded me of the work of AdBusters in Canada for many years, which was hugely that was one of the rabbit holes I went down a few decades, a few decades before you. And one said that sustainability is bullshit. Yeah. So please explain.
SPEAKER_00:Sustainability is bullshit because it's a it's a word that's completely deprived of meaning. You know, it started out as being sort of the ability for future generations to live without sort of consequences, as defined in the Brund Brundland report. But now it's a way for consultants to sell more, you know, consulting or firms to sell more products, or all of these things. And I think what is happening is that we see the slow co-option of our language, which being is being commodified basically. So 95 or 99% of all sustainability out there is bullshit. And I think one of the main reasons is that is that people really they misunderstand what sustainability is. I think we've probably all seen you know the generative system, sustainability and regeneration, right? That's you know the path. But you know, that that entire understanding is completely flipped because sustainability is not a transition, it's an outcome. You know, it's a it's a product, it's a state. And regeneration is a transition. So when we talk about sustainability, people say like you can have a sustainable house, but there's no sustainable house in a degenerative system. It it simply doesn't exist. And we live in a fundamentally degenerative system, we have transgressed six out seven out of nine planetary boundaries. We are way over and we are way in overshoot. So saying something is sustainable, which basically means that it doesn't add further harm, is kind of an oxymoron at this point. Because even let's say that even if you are able to develop a product that had no harm, you're still in harm. You know, the all the systems are stressing. So I I love this analogy where it's more like it's imagine that you have uh blood pressure that's way too high and it keeps increasing. Then let's say that one at one point you stop increasing that. Would you then consider yourself healthy? You absolutely wouldn't. You would still be in grave danger. So sustainability is the part where your blood pressure is actually in a healthy state. And there's not no product or market or anything in the world that can be in that state when all the systems are stressing. So that's why I think fundamentally sustainability is a bullshit word and that people really don't actually understand.
SPEAKER_03:So I'm gonna bring Adorno here, Steve. I'm so sorry to do that, but a wrong life cannot be lived right. So sustainability is bullshit.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, exactly.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, great.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly. We've maxed out on this podcast episode that we really have.
SPEAKER_03:Yes, we have so, Casper, your recent work has covered everything from feminism to anxiety, housing, and global conflict, as well as regularly turning to climate and nature. It's a question which comes up a great deal for us. But how, as Gramsci would say, do you balance optimism with a realistic view of the world? And we need to change that.
SPEAKER_00:I think that what you know, being in this work, and I think most people that are in this work can sort of agree that there's ups and downs. You know, there's times when you feel more helpful and hopeful, and sometimes you feel helpless. But I think how I balance this is that I've seen firsthand how taking action can really deliver real results. With the reduction road, it was a huge sort of game changer for me where it felt like okay, collectively we have the power to overturn these systems. And that brought me so much optimism because in the end of the day, if we understand this and if we harness this, there is a way out. We will inevitably go through a collapse. And I would say that we are already in the middle of a collapse because things are collapsing around us. But how we build the systems that come after is now what our focus should be on. And I think that is a huge potential and a huge optimism for building a better world because this one honestly is pretty fucking shit. Because it might be nice for us sitting here in a in a in a cozy, warm home, but for the majority of people that live for all the five dollars and fifty a day, it's a struggle, it's uh it's not a nice life. And I think like we have the capacity to create uh Eden if we wanted to, but we choose not to. So I think you know, I'm hoping that we can build that one after this, you know.
SPEAKER_01:After this Wow, so Casper, we are gonna have to wrap it up, even though I don't want to, because uh our final question still looms ahead of you. So our network is ironically called Do Not Smile, because we need to make sustainability. I can't even say the word now, Tumblr. Oh shit, look what Casper's done. Our entire race on Tetra is unraveling. So we're called Do Not Smile because we know that we need to make a better future. Something that brings happiness into the world, and we'll we'll agree on the nomenclature later. So tell us what object, place, or person always makes you smile.
SPEAKER_00:I the object is very oh okay. The object is my cargo bike where I transport my two kids every day to to kindergarten and out to school. And my my favorite people, I would say, is my kids and my wife, and I think that that's the one that um and uh my favorite place is is in our home, to be honest, because it's all of the work that I do is basically because I want to create a future for for them that is there, that's why I do it. So this is the reason why I'm I'm trying to do this work.
SPEAKER_01:Wow. Well, there you go, Damler. We have met a truly kindred spirit. So we can thank Christoph Koenigs from our sister agency in Brussels for bringing this together. And Casper, it's an amazing conversation. Your work is brilliant. I think everybody listening needs to check it out immediately and then lose a massive chunk of their working day to scrolling through your back catalogue because it's absolutely bloody amazing. Damla, do you want to round us up?
SPEAKER_03:So thanks to everyone who has listened to our Goodgeist podcast brought to you by the Do Not Smile Network of Agencies.
SPEAKER_01:And make sure you listen to future episodes where we'll be talking to more amazing people about how we can work together to create a more sustainable future. So, Damla, Kasper, see you soon.
SPEAKER_02:Bye.
SPEAKER_01:Bye.
SPEAKER_02:Goodgeist, a podcast series on sustainability hosted by Damla Ozler and Steve Connor. Brought to you by the DNS Network.
