GoodGeist
A podcast on sustainability, hosted by Damla Özlüer and Steve Connor, brought to you by the DNS Network. Looking at sustainability issues, communications, and featuring global guests from a wide variety of sectors such as business, NGOs and government.
GoodGeist
A Business to Make Business Better, with Danielle and Vicky Heward
In this episode we're chatting to Danielle and Vicky Heward, the founders of Optimo, a consultancy that's on a mission to help progressive organisations work smarter, not harder.
They look holistically at the four pillars of successful operations: people who are engaged and motivated, clear processes everyone understands, technology that supports (not dictates) those processes, and metrics that track progress toward your North Star.
This framework helps mission-driven leaders step back from day-to-day firefighting to focus on strategic leadership.
We also talk more personally about the risk of burning out when you're driven by a cause, and the delicate balance between passion and wellbeing that all purpose-driven professionals need to navigate.
All that, plus practical top tips on how to manage your work and projects to make the world a better place. Listen in!
Follow GoodGeist for more episodes on sustainability, communications and how creativity can help make the world a better place.
Good Geist, a podcast series on sustainability hosted by Damla Özler and Steve Connor, brought to you by the DNS Network.
Speaker 2:Hello, hello everyone, you are listening to Good Guys, the message on sustainability which is brought to you by the DNS Network, the global network of agencies dedicated to making the world a better place. This is Damla from Mira Agency, istanbul, and.
Speaker 3:This is Steve from Creative Concern in Manchester. This podcast series explores global sustainability issues, how they're communicated and what creativity can do to make positive change happen.
Speaker 2:So in this episode we're going to talk to Daniela and Vicky Heavard, the founders of Optimo, a UK startup that has the brilliant mission of basically helping progressive organizations and businesses get better at what they do so that, in turn, they can make a real difference in the world.
Speaker 3:What a good idea, anyway. So they can tell us more about all of this in a moment, but they apply their skills in project operational management together with subcontracting experts in finance, hr, digital solutions. Danielle is a highly experienced project manager, um, as well as being former chair of yorkshire's brain tumor charity which is amazing and vicky is on the leeds climate commission, which we'll get into in a minute, and, as a track record, is a business analyst both in the private and charity sectors. So thank you so much both of you for joining us thanks for having us.
Speaker 4:Nice to be here. Yeah, you also like nailed the description of what we do, so you can officially become optimo reps if you like excellent.
Speaker 2:I love the episodes with opportunities, don't you? Before getting deep on that, let's hear about your shared journey that led you to launching your own business together. What's the path you've taken? Who would like to start? Yeah, I'll probably start that journey.
Speaker 5:So Danielle and I met when we worked for a charity Step Change Debt Charity. I'd worked there for a number of years in various roles, including just answering the telephones and worked my way through to being a business analyst just answering the telephones and worked my way through to being a business analyst and we both were put onto a large digital transformation project that the charity was undertaking. So I managed a team of business analysts and the project that I was also working and contributing towards was helping the charity prepare itself for that change that was coming. The charity prepare itself for that change that was coming. So thinking about taking the things that were happening from the technology side and how that would impact the processes and the people that were working in there. So, yeah, we were put together, along with some of my team, to work under Danielle's watchful eye as our project manager and whilst doing that, we found that we really enjoyed working together and I guess some people, when we tell this story to people, people go I can't.
Speaker 5:I couldn't work with my partner, but we didn't meet and you know we didn't start, we didn't get together and then start thinking about working. We did it the other way around. So we knew probably the worst side of each other when you're in work and you're under a lot of pressure and you know dealing with all the the ups and downs that working in a in a high, highly stressful and very fast-paced environment brings. Um. I left this, the charity, after a while, and went on to my consulting career, which took off in in tech, and I worked as a business analyst, working in many different sectors, public and private, and then we eventually circled back round to our past crossing, and at that point Danielle was already doing her thing somewhere else. But I'll let you pick up the story for how it kind of crosses over and how it all came about.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so in the meantime, while Vicky was kind of consulting for another tech consultancy company, I had started Optimo. So I originally set up my limited company to become a contractor project manager, but that was right before COVID. So I've been doing about I've done about five months on this contract and then they were like it was like an office infrastructure, it infrastructure project and of course nobody needed their offices during lockdown. So they were like thanks very much, see you later. So I was like god, what am I going to do now? So I actually joined the NatWest business accelerator program that they were running. So they did like a virtual cohort of that through lockdown which I was on.
Speaker 4:So I sort like, right, I'm going to start from scratch really and figure out what I want to do, who I want to work with, how I can help, all of that sort of stuff, and started with my values basically and trying to figure out like what it was I actually wanted to spend my time doing.
Speaker 4:So I sort of came to the conclusion that I wanted to combine my professional expertise and experience with my personal passions, and the planet, essentially, has always been something that I've been very passionate about and very I've always had like a sense of connection, I suppose, to like the natural world and how we're very much part of nature, and so I was very drawn to what I was seeing in terms of a rise in organizations that had some really like just like cool solutions to climate action and things like that.
Speaker 4:And yeah decided that that was kind of the route that I wanted to go. So I learned a bit more about sustainability and started exploring all of the different organizations that existed to, you know, to offer these solutions but where they didn't necessarily have the kind of operational know-how or those kind of business and project management skills to get those things off the ground or to kind of pivot towards offering those solutions. So that was how Optimo came to be really and, yeah, vicky joined as as co-director once I could finally afford her basically to join. So that was kind of the plan all along. But I was like I think I need a bit more money before I can convince you to to come and join the crazy ride.
Speaker 3:So yeah, and here we are right, so we won't get distracted by how expensive Vicky is, although that tempting though that is, also on the off chance that my partner listens to the podcast. I won't get into whether you can work with your partner or not, because the thought of it brings me out in a cold sweat anyway yeah, we get that a lot yeah.
Speaker 3:I bet um, but you're clearly on a mission, so tell us a bit more about Optimo's ethical approach, because obviously that's a a big driver for you guys, before we get into the sort of nuts and bolts of it.
Speaker 4:Or what tell us about the ethics piece yeah, so I think you know, as I say, climate action and climate change was always like the driver for me, I suppose, in terms of the things that I was really passionate about. But the more that you learn about sustainability, the more that you realise I mean, I came at it from a climate sort of perspective, but the more you look into it, the more that you realise kind of environmental and social issues are very interlinked and there's kind of not, you know, you can't decouple one from the other in a lot of instances, and so, um, that is kind of that underpins everything that we do really and about the way that, everything that we, that we do. So, um, and then vicky, um, you would describe yourself as a, as a kind of edi enthusiast, I think. So that's where some of that people stuff comes into it as well. I don't know if you want to say a bit more on that yeah, I'm a big people person, like.
Speaker 5:My background is is leading teams, working, managing with people, managing people in teams, and I'm really passionate about, you know, making the place a workplace, especially as safe and as inclusive as possible, because we should all be. You know, encouraging diversity in our workforces, bringing new perspectives, bringing different viewpoints and angles, and being able to design a product or a service with as many different perspectives and angles is only a recipe for success. It's not going to end unhappily for anybody if you get more ideas to be able to, to think about. And I'm really passionate about the way that our business runs and making sure that we have inclusive um, you know, policies, procedures and processes internally, but we also do that externally with the people that we work with and making sure they're thinking about and things like how, how inclusive are their recruitment processes? How do they bring them? Do they bring different people into the role that they wouldn't necessarily always think about?
Speaker 5:You know it's very easy to try and just clone yourself in a team, you know, and have multiple versions or similar versions to yourself, which is great, but it can also lead to an echo chamber and real, you know, very in into, inward looking kind of perspectives and viewpoints rather than having you know different, different angles, and I just I'm a people person, I love people, I love learning about where people come from. So I'm always you know, I'm always flying the flag for, for inclusivity and diversity in whatever shape or form, and also from a personal perspective as well I might I'm always flying the flag for every other person on this planet to make sure that they get a fair crack at whatever they're doing Well.
Speaker 2:you've cited passion, I think five times. I was coming. I take a shot every time. But you also said that we have to find some recipes to thrive as businesses. So a critical question here for all of us, driven by passion and ethics how do you, or should you, keep an eye on your own well-being? I mean, how do you stop a dedication to a cause burning you out?
Speaker 5:Yeah, it's a really good question and it's actually something that we get asked a lot, because we we live and we work together, we run the business together. People always like where are the boundaries in life?
Speaker 4:how do you stop talking about work?
Speaker 5:yeah, how do you stop talking about work, which obviously is part of well-being is making sure you've got that downtime as much as you've got that uptime when you've got to. You know, run a business and there's lots of different ways. So within ourselves at Optimo, we make sure we take time to carve out the day that we want to work in to meet our optimum. So, as an example, I'm a really good early riser. I like getting up. I'll go to the gym. I can start work at like seven, eight o'clock in the morning. Getting up, I'll go to the gym, I will. I can start work at like seven, eight o'clock in the morning, but I know that my energy levels dip, but you know, mid afternoon and then I can do a few more hours getting in towards tea time, whereas you know, some of the people that we've had in our team in the past of, like I don't really come online until, you know, after lunch. So we encourage people to design the day that suits their energy and how they work at their most optimum and we allow them to, you know, to create that safe space so they can, you know, be their best when they're working and so that they perform, you know, to the best of their own abilities and they're looking after their own well-being as they're going through.
Speaker 5:But also, I think, for Danielle and I, is we just enjoy being out and about in nature as well, and one thing that we try and do, even on a local, day-to-day level, is take a walk or, you know, be out and about. You know, whether it's a lunch break or end of the day, get out, go for a walk, spend some time, you know, listening to the birds and just being quiet, which sounds bizarre, but you know, not having noise, not having to talk to people, not having to, you know, regurgitate conversations that we've had with, maybe with clients, or talking about this, that and they were making decisions. We really take that time, make sure we take that time to just decompress and making sure that we um, you know we have time to reflect on what, where we are. We also I don't know if she'll tell me off this, but we also practice gratitude. Quite a lot is one of the things where we go for walks.
Speaker 5:So we try and focus on three things that we're grateful for during that day and as we're walking, we'll just bounce off each other and be like, oh, I'm really grateful, and sometimes it doesn't have to be really big things, though. I'm just going to say it's like I'm really grateful for the sunshine, I'm really grateful that you made me come on this walk, that I really didn't want to go on, but I'm here and I'm so glad that I came for it. Um, so there's little things like on a daily basis, on and with and within our team, that we really try and hone in on, to to balance the, the boundaries and the you know the juggling act that is um running a business, living together and being married yeah, and I think for me as well, like I seem to have it in, like in my DNA, to just throw myself at work.
Speaker 4:Like even before, like any job that I've ever had, I've always given it like 110% and I've always had that like desire to do well and to do a good job for the people that I'm working for. And I think I have found out the hard way a few times. But I think last year was like the icing on the cake, but not in a nice way. So like apologies in advance for bringing it down, um for a second, but like I started last year already near to burnout, so I think I hadn't really switched off properly over Christmas and I kind of came into January swinging and Vicky kept saying like I think you're burnt out, like I'm seeing all these signs, and I was like no, no, I'm just busy, it's fine, I'm just a bit stressed, like it's fine, we've got this weekend break in March. If I can get there, then I'll be okay. And then we've got this Airbnb booked for our weekend away and unfortunately, on the day that we arrived I got a phone call to say that one of my best friends had taken her own life. So I was already, you know, at a really low point in terms of my energy levels and my resilience. Putting grief on top of that was obviously, just, like you know, almost impossible to deal with.
Speaker 4:So I think, for me as well, like the people that I had around me to support me yes, vicky, but like also like other business owners that have become my friends and became like my safe place, like we went to like co-working days and I would just spend the entire day crying because I could, because I was with people that were, that were my friends and really helped me through it.
Speaker 4:So I think, like having a support network where people are like, are you remembering to look after yourself? Have you got breaks planned? Like not in a few months time, where you've got to kill yourself between now and there that's an awful joke where you've got to get, you know, get from here to there, um, but like build that into your day and your week as well. So like, yeah, I think, just making sure that those things are actually like actively planned in and making sure that you have that network around you so you know being able to spot those burnout kind of um symptoms that might be appearing and doing something about it as early as possible has like been a real kind of game changer for me since then, I think Good advice, danielle, good advice the so Vicky you mentioned.
Speaker 3:Obviously you started talking about your clients there a minute ago and let's turn to them a little bit. And people you class, I mean. Um, uh, I worked for a good 10 years in ngos and charities before we started our agency, and um and damla and mirrors um client base is entirely cause related, as is ours. Um, do you? And I remember how easy it was to kind of lose focus or effectiveness because you're so busy saving the world. You think how could I possibly not be at the top of my game if I'm saving the world? Do you think there is a fact now that you're focused on it in your work? Do you think cause related organizations need to raise their game a little bit in terms of effectiveness? Is that, is that the space that you're in?
Speaker 5:It's a tough one because obviously people who are working in organisations that have a purpose, let's face it they're probably not in it to make lots of money. They're in it because they've got a passion, it's they want to make a difference, whether it's through something that's helping other people or helping something that's environmental related. They're there because they want to be able to make a difference in some way way, shape or form. And it's very easy and very quick to get caught up in in pursuing that cause as quickly as possible to make the difference. Because you know, that's that's why they do it, that's why that's the reason why they get out of bed on a morning. So it is, you know, it is really tough to identify those opportunities where you kind of step back a little bit from that day to day grind and look for how do I do this a little bit easier? And there's that, you know, that's the line of where we'd be able to work smarter and not harder. And that's a really tough juggle. And when we, you know, when we speak to these types of organizations, especially those who are particularly in the third sector, ngo style things they are the types of people where we'd spend quite a bit of time building the relationship, understanding their challenges, understanding who and what and why. They even got into that, you know, into that position in the first place, to then be able to unravel them from the day-to-day weeds of what's actually happening, to then be able to understand what the challenges are that they're facing. So it takes us a while A lot of the people that we work with it's not just a one-and-done kind of session. The work that we do with them has to go on for a long period of time and you know potentially you know up to a year and years beyond, because it's all about understanding who. You know who and why. Then the then they're understanding what's important to them and then allowing them and giving them the space to gain perspective on where it is. They want to end up not just getting on day by day and not just kind of getting into the weeds and making things happen. So in terms of raising their game, they don't always know they need to raise their game. They need to. What they actually initially need to do is gain the space so that they can get the perspective to then be able to understand where is it I want to get, get this business or get this organization to, and then they start looking, you know, start being able to breathe and look a little bit more on a holistic level, to then see, oh, I, actually I've ended up, you know, getting so far into into the, into the, the weeds of what's happening day-to-day, being involved in everything that. Then we have to kind of prise their fingers off of the kind of the day to day operations which then allows some you know the team to kind of fill that gap, be empowered to actually do, you know, do more or, you know, develop in their roles that they have in their teams, to then support that leader to do more.
Speaker 5:Leading. And it's quite like a bit of a vicious cycle sometimes is that we have leaders who come to us and go. We know we need to be doing this and I just don't know how, when I've got this person, this job, and this person who's in, who's meant to be doing their operations, is like I need you to go away, I need you to not be involved, and we're like we, we can help you, we can support you, trying to push that leader back out of the weeds and get them to remember they're the leader, not the, you know, not necessarily the doer. If they have people in their organization who are meant to be there, we kind of come in and help shove them out the way, make make sure that they the person who is, uh, you know, appointed as their operations person to be able to get in there and actually do their job.
Speaker 5:And you know, and a lot of the time, they know how to do it. What they probably don't know how to do is get the person out the way that's in the way and that normally is the leader, and there's a little bit of like to and fro in there because you don't want to be disrespectful to the owner or the founder or the leader, but then there's like this jostle of respect and I can't tell it, I can't tell them to not be here and, you know, disappear or bug off or whatever it is. It's really difficult, you know, to get, to get them to understand that um, but that's why it takes us so long is we have to understand the, understand the lay of the land, understand the politics and really get to grips with, uh, everything before we can then start going.
Speaker 2:Okay, this is, this is how we can help um I think you also have to understand what makes them tick absolutely yeah, so that you can keep their eyes on the prize absolutely yeah, and that's where the relationships come in.
Speaker 5:And one of the things that um does make us different and it is a bit cheesy, but one of the things that does really make us different is we do take the time to understand the people. We are people, but you know people. People we love to understand the relationships that they have with their teams, where you know, understand what makes them tick, what are their motivations, what are their own. Because you have, like, obviously you've got your business values, but your personal values might be very similar to your business values as well. So really get into the heart of what it is that they. Why did they get into it?
Speaker 5:I always like asking people their founder stories, like how did you even get into this? Because I end up finding you find little traits of like where their motivation came from in the first place by asking them how did you end up here? And a lot of the time, in fact, 10 out of 10 times, it's never a straight line. They didn't come out of, you know, school or university or whatever went straight to leading a business. There was a very, you know, wiggly line between where they came out of an education setting to where they end up as leaders and founders well, I've got a very wiggly line.
Speaker 3:I can tell you I'm much for nothing yeah me too.
Speaker 2:I think that's life also. But I want to turn to Danielle. As a seasoned project manager, what will be your top tips for people and organizations working to make a difference? I mean, are there some simple steps that you think that people can take to be more effective? Are there some easy recipes?
Speaker 4:uh, easy recipes, probably not every organization that we work with I know it's funny, because what we do actually is I always say, you know, what we do is agnostic of sector. But the problem is every organization has a slightly different variation of the way that they do things and therefore their challenges are are always slightly different. But I think, um, some of the things that I would say are um, like, always start with your vision, and I think especially um your vision and your mission. Like, especially when you're working in organizations that may be largely grant funded or things like that, I think there's a tendency, or there can be, it can be tempting to kind of go after funding opportunities, even if they don't necessarily completely align with what you're doing, and then what you end up doing is just generating more work just to get the money, as opposed to funding what you're trying to achieve in the first place. So I think keeping that kind of vision and mission, you know, as you're guiding North Star, is really important.
Speaker 4:And then I think the recipe, I suppose, for operations, in terms of the way that we look at it at Optimo, is so we look holistically at people, processes, technology and information. So we say, if you can make sure that your people are engaged, empowered and motivated and they have the tools that they need to do the job. Make sure your processes are clear so that everybody understands what they should be doing. Do you have software or technology that will actually support those processes? And it's important to do it that way around. So don't go and spend money on software just because somebody you know your mates told you that this CRM system is really good.
Speaker 4:Start with what your business process is, that you're actually trying to support and making sure that you're tracking the right information. So how are you measuring the right metrics so that you know you're actually making progress towards that North Star that you've identified? So I think, kind of those four ingredients, if you like, for for an operation or for an organization, um, are like a really useful template for us in terms of the way that we work with, with clients, um, and I find that that a lot of people find that quite helpful. Just to kind of break it down in that in that way, um. So yeah, I think that's that's probably the the easiest way to break down. I think that's that's probably the the easiest way to break down.
Speaker 3:I think that was a recipe, daniel, I think you gave it to us. I mean, it's a little bit. You know you're dangling it, and then you took it away and then, but the um, so I, I'm going, um, I was going to get stuck into the lead city climate commission vicky, um, because you sell on that and um, I chaired manchester's climate change panel for many years and feel really passionate about it. But I'd like to broaden it out a little bit, because one of the many passions that you've mentioned about seven times wasn't just climate and, daniel, you said you feel strongly about this but also, uh, diversity and inclusion, and both net zero climate action. Diversity is getting an absolute bloody battering politically at the moment and I wonder what your take is. Sorry, so I am taking this very much off script, but you know, uh, what's your take on the current political backdrop that we're all trying to work in, where we're trying to keep, you know, focused on dei, focused on climate action, keep progress happening, and yet we're absolutely getting battered, aren't we?
Speaker 5:I've got to be careful because I'm really passionate about the whole political landscape at the minute. Um, go for it, don't worry, you'll regret saying that. I hate people being trapped unfairly, no matter what their characteristic is. I hate the fact that other people on this planet will mistreat other human beings. It really, it upsets me, it makes my blood boil. It really it's the passion that probably makes me feel this way in the first place.
Speaker 5:Um, I think, like the world, there are lots, there were always going to be, opposite opinions when it comes to things like obviously we're talking about. Um, you know the whole, the whole ruling about from the supreme court about what a woman is. Is is the burning topic and literally went to a dinner yesterday and it was brought up at the table. I think you know we as humans, are always going to have, you know, different opinions and we are always there. You're never going to agree with everybody. That was one thing my mom always taught me. You're never going to be able to agree with everyone, but what we do have to do is be tolerant and be patient and be understanding to everybody's battles that they have going on, whether it's to do with a protected characteristic, whether it's to do with their social background, whether it's to do with a financial, you know their financial situations or even their mental health. You know we all have to just be a little bit kind.
Speaker 5:One of the things that I say in life all the time is let's just be kind, you don't have to like it, just keep moving on. If you don't, you know, if you don't agree with it, just move on. You know, like let's not engage in inciting violence and hatred. And online is a great place where people can hide behind their keyboards and spew abuse to everybody that they see that they don't like. They don't like what they see, they don't like what that person says, and it really I find it horrible. And if everybody was just a little bit kind, we would probably live in a much nicer society and a nicer place overall, and that's probably the nicest way I can sum it up without getting ranty.
Speaker 2:I really want to go deep in that, uh, and I will try to be kind on certain occasions reciting you, but but we are out of time, I'm so sorry about it. I have to ask the last question. Final question our network is ironically called do not smile, because we need to make sustainability a subject that brings happiness into the world. So what object, place or person always makes you smile? Do you want to go?
Speaker 4:first. Well, I was going to say you, but I don't know if that's just I was wondering whether you're going to do that.
Speaker 3:That's beautiful.
Speaker 5:Oh, now I feel really inadequate. I was going to say the one thing that always makes me smile is like being near water and being at the beach. That's the one place that I always feel my most calmest and my most happiest. But now I've got to say Danielle.
Speaker 2:You just restored our faith in love. I think that is great.
Speaker 3:So now we're smiling as well. It's like a contagion.
Speaker 5:Feel the love.
Speaker 3:I know it's a beautiful thing, hey, listen. So that's been a wonderful insight into Optimo, and I think it's always lovely. Our network of agencies is all about working with cause-related organizations, just like you, so even though you're not in comms, we feel like you're part of the family, so absolutely brilliant to have met you. So, damla, do you want to wrap us up?
Speaker 2:well, no, but I have to. So thanks to everyone who has listened to our Good Geist podcast, brought to you by the Do Not Smile network of agencies.
Speaker 3:And make sure you listen to future episodes, where we'll be talking to more amazing people about how we can work together to create a more sustainable future. So, vicky, danielle, damla, see you soon, bye, bye.
Speaker 1:Good Geist, a podcast series on sustainability Hosted by Damla Özler and Steve Connor, brought to you by the DNS Network.
