GoodGeist
A podcast on sustainability, hosted by Damla Özlüer and Steve Connor, brought to you by the DNS Network. Looking at sustainability issues, communications, and featuring global guests from a wide variety of sectors such as business, NGOs and government.
GoodGeist
Forging a Path to Wealth With Purpose, with Nina Hoas
What does wealth truly mean beyond basic safety and security? Nina Hoas, Head of LGT Philanthropy Advisory, takes us on her journey exploring this question through the eyes of those inheriting unprecedented fortunes during what has been described as the largest wealth transfer in human history.
We talk to Nina about her humanitarian work in conflict zones for the UN, and her understanding of real 'on-the-ground' impact before talking about how she brought this expertise to ultra-wealthy families seeking to achieve purpose-driven philanthropy.
The conversation reveals striking insights from LGT's groundbreaking "Wealth for Impact" study, where over 60 next-generation wealth inheritors spoke candidly about their relationship with wealth.
For anyone interested in how wealth can drive meaningful change, this episode offers rare insights from those at the forefront of next-generation philanthropy.
Follow GoodGeist for more episodes on sustainability, communications and how creativity can help make the world a better place.
Good Geist, a podcast series on sustainability hosted by Damla Özler and Steve Connor, brought to you by the DNS Network.
Speaker 2:Hello, hello everyone, you are listening to Good Guys, the message on sustainability which is brought to you by the DNS Network, the global network of agencies dedicated to making the world a better place. This is Damla from Mirai Agency, istanbul, and.
Speaker 3:This is Steve from Creative Concern in Manchester. This podcast series explores global sustainability issues, how they're communicated and what creativity can do to make positive change happen.
Speaker 2:So in this episode we're going to talk to Nina Holtz, the head of LGT Philanthropy Advisory. Lgt Group is one of the largest family-owned private banking and asset management groups in the world. It is owned by the Princely House of Liechtenstein and, as a family-owned business, lgt has a long-standing tradition rooted in shared values within the Princely family of Liechtensteins, which includes deep commitment to social accountability, generations of philanthropic giving and a clear focus on responsible and long-term investments.
Speaker 3:So, and that's what we're going to get into with Nina, who's a philanthropy advisor drawing on over 25 years of experience working in the international development and wealth management industries, and in 2021, she was asked to set up and lead the bank's advisory services for ultra-high net worth individuals and families on how to realise their philanthropic aspirations. So, nina, thank you so much for talking to Danla and myself.
Speaker 4:Well, my pleasure. Thank you both. Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2:Nina, we always love to begin with a personal story. Could you tell us a bit about your own journey in which you worked for humanitarian programs in West Africa, advised private clients from Europe and Middle East around the world to make positive change? May I say?
Speaker 4:Yeah, so thank you. I guess for everyone there's been pivotal points in their lives where you know that sort of shapes their career paths or their paths and journeys in general. And for me, I believe, the biggest influence was really spending a lot of time in Africa growing up. So I had the privilege of having godparents and my aunt and my uncle and my mom and her, my, her sister. They were very, very close so I had the privilege of going and visit them every single year together with my family in Kenya, where they were living, in Nairobi in fact, and I think for me that growing up and uh, seeing, because not only did we go to Nairobi, we actually spent a lot of time in the beach house they had a little bit north of Mombasa, and this beach house was taken care of by Kasungo and his family, but Kasungo primarily, and every single year we would go from Nairobi through the national parks in Kenya and down to the house where Kasungo and then also to visit Kasungo and his extended family in this village. And you can imagine this typical African village with the mud houses, with the straw roofs and no electricity, no water, not necessarily schooling either for the girls, and so for me, that contrast was very apparent. You know, being Swedish myself and being able to take most of the things for granted, growing up and seeing this family and the lifestyle and the conditions and communities back there in Kenya, for me that was probably life-changing and a way that made me dedicated to go into this field of work. So I grew up knowing that I wanted to work for the United Nations and fast forward. That's exactly what I did. I actually started with an internship in Kenya with UNICEF and had a certain career within the United Nations.
Speaker 4:I spent quite a lot of time in North Africa, but also in Southeast Asia, working in conflict zones, so mainly in emergency and humanitarian operations, taking care of refugees from Sierra Leone and Liberia. When I was in Guinea and during the civil war in Cote d'Ivoire, we were the emergency team closest to Cote d'Ivoire, so we were based there. I was based there for quite some time and taking care also then of fleeing populations from the rebel troops and the government troops. Um, yeah, and back spending, um, spending quite some time in humanitarian war zones, basically.
Speaker 4:And I guess there was another pivotal point in my career as well and that was working with rohingyas so stateless population. All of a sudden who does not have any sort of protection uh, crossing the borders not even refugee protection here and seeing that hopeless situation for these populations and where we had quite a few UN organizations supporting the Rohingyas me included here I saw there was a lot of. I saw there was a lot of despair and very little hope. I felt being young and ambitious and dedicated in the United Nations. I love the UN, so nothing against the UN.
Speaker 4:But this is also during exactly the same time as you started to hear a lot about philanthropy and Bill Gates has started the giving pledge, for instance, and you had big families pledging their wealth and also, for you know, taking sort of private, private uh business acumen into their philanthropy and into their giving and and you know, trying, uh, very if what I felt were a little bit different and efficient and and and coming from the private sector, and I was very intrigued by that and this is also the start of my career then later, working with philanthropists and individuals and families wanting to do good but maybe not having the same contexts out in the field as I had, and I brought that experience with me, um and uh enjoyed that very much and still enjoy that very much. So that's uh, working with families to try to do or give more and give better.
Speaker 3:That's basically what we're trying to do, yeah well, that is quite the journey there, nina, it has to be said, and it sounds sounds like you've certainly used your passport a fair few times on all those amazing journeys across the world. That we talked to you was the latest report the LGT's put out on philanthropy, called Wealth for Impact, and it's quite a big statement. It says in the report, I think, about how over the next 50 years, we'll see quite a monumental shift in wealth that will mark the most significant transfer of assets basically in history, and I know that's backed up by other reports from people like oxfam and world bank statistics. And you focus on that and its impact from a philanthropic angle. So tell us more about this, what sounds like a fascinating transition.
Speaker 4:Your perspective on it yeah, so it's very true, right so. So that we are, within the next 50 years, seeing the biggest wealth transfer in history. But for us, it's not only a financial event, if you think about it, because the decisions that the next generations of wealth holders, the decisions that they will be making around all the dimensions of the wealth that they are inheriting whether it is, let's say, from the creation of more wealth, let's say they are inheriting a family business, for instance. So the decisions around that, the decisions around the giving, the spending, the investing of their wealth, as well as also decisions in preparing the next generation and passing on wealth all these decisions will have far-reaching implications to everything in our society and our environment, from the air we breathe through, you know, food we're eating, clothes we're wearing. So those decisions will have far-reaching implications, and that's why we felt it's very important actually to make sure. Well, it's important to take a holistic and values led approach to wealth and the impact that wealth can have, because any financial transaction will have a certain impact, whether it's good or it's bad. It's up to you and the decisions you're making around it. So this is why we wanted to look into all the different dimensions of wealth.
Speaker 4:My team and I, we identify these five dimensions of wealth. So, basically, the creation of wealth, the spending, giving, investing of wealth, as well as the passing on a wealth. So we uh wanted to hear the perspectives and bring forward the perspectives of these next generations wealth holders. We have this hypothesis that they are taking a more holistic view and a more uh bringing sustainability into their uh practices, in in and not taking, you know, not using uh wealth in isolation, with one pocket I'm giving, from one other pocket I'm investing, from another pocket I'm spending, but actually, uh recognizing that you will have an impact through all these different dimensions.
Speaker 4:So, yeah, so we did this study. We interviewed more than 60 ultra-high net worth next generations of wealth holders, and I should perhaps mention that when we're saying next gen, we're not necessarily talking about the young next gen. So for us it was anyone that is inheriting wealth, whether you are. We interviewed from 17 up to 70, something like that. So, so, from young to to to old, but at least you're inherited, because we feel that you have a different perspective, um, on the inheritance of your, rather than when you're making your wealth, you have a different perspective when you're actually born into wealth. So that's what we did in the study.
Speaker 2:That's actually a very fascinating and interesting approach. When we go through the report we see that, as you said, you had very different layers and dimensions of looking at that wealth with this next generation not only inheriting how it's done, how it's invested, how it's going to be passed, but also how it's perceived by them and the value set behind it. So bringing all them together and asking the question of impact is very important, because sometimes when we're talking about philanthropy, I think we also miss the point that not only the philanthropic efforts but also the business decisions have a huge impact if we're talking about the ultra wealthy class. So I think that's very important and fascinating and I want to bring two quotations from the report together and ask you a theoretical question and your take on it. The first quotation was actually in the very first page of the report, stating that wealth is an avenue to have an impact, not something to be personally glorified or to showcase huge achievements. So this was the beginning.
Speaker 2:This one is the value-based approach and this is a vision actually. And the second one is having wealth allows you to believe that, short of a third world war, you will have nothing to worry about in your old age. That's the fundamental privilege of wealth, and this quotation is a slightly different one because this one has the meaning of wealth according to its owners. So, when I come to this, my question is the second one. The meaning of wealth as a safety is so universal, I mean besides the class. This may be a perception of wealth for everyone, owning that wealth or not, but the first one is a visionary one and it can be applied by the wealthy. So what is the working mechanism that brings these two together and pushes the wealth owners to do more good? Mm-hmm.
Speaker 4:Yeah, you're referring to the first chapter of the report. So when we interviewed these over 60 individuals, the first question we would ask everyone was what does wealth mean to you? And we received so many interesting but really personal uh, reflections, um, and the discussions, and they were very personal with us, which to our um, I guess positive surprise in a way. But they were very, very personal and and they shared really from from personal values and their perceptions about wealth and privilege and privilege became very apparent. What we discussed around privilege was that it was very apparent for the wealth holders that they had privilege. It's not something that you feel, it's something that you only perceive in relation to others, right, so they realized it before adulthood and very often in conversations with peers or in the communities where they were in schools and so on. But it's not visible, right, you? You, you start um putting into in relation to others and as they became aware of this privilege, they also started to realize the responsibility of wealth.
Speaker 4:A lot of people felt that it's wealth can have this, provide you opportunities and and freedom, and if you go to your second quote, there I mean on in terms of safety, that is just. You know, that's just the beginning of, even if we refer to the maslow's hierarchy of needs, right, I mean the basic needs is really covered by the physiological needs food, water and warmth and then the basic need is it's really around the safety and security. But once you have that and that is what wealth, what money, can give you, right, but once you have that, then you start looking into the psychological needs and the self-fulfillment needs. And that part is what people started to speak about when speaking in relation to wealth, because what they felt was that you can have you can have, through wealth, opportunities, the freedom, the way to self-development, education, you can have all of that. But the real thing for you, where wealth really has meaning, it's when you are feeling fulfilled. And the only way to do that is to have a forging, sort of forging your own path towards purpose and meaning. And in order to have purpose and meaning, they very often use their wealth for positive impact and that's where they could feel this purpose and self-fulfillment.
Speaker 4:Now, wealth in itself it's often also, I mean, there were conflicting views around wealth, because on the one side, when they did have these paths towards fulfillment and purpose, then all good, but there was a very fine line towards wealth, feeling even as a a burden, or or they had a lot of responsibility. They felt a lot of responsibility vis-a-vis the wealth that they were given, responsibility vis-a-vis themselves or their family, their legacy, society, etc. And even to the point where where this could feel a burden. So there were many other quotes from the individuals that were interviewed like that. You know, in order to feel self-fulfillment, they needed to to be seen not as somebody with, you know, just with a net worth, but rather with a self-worth, or somebody saying, hey, I don't want to feel poor by being rich. So that you know, it was very, very important.
Speaker 4:Once you, once you have this basic need sort of, then this fulfillment and psychological, psychological needs and self-fulfillment is very, very prevalent and you really need to do something with your wealth in order to find that, and sometimes maybe even more difficult.
Speaker 4:A lot of people were also re-quoting, for instance, what Buffett is saying he wouldn't want to give his children too much money. Rather, he says I want to give them enough in order to be able to do whatever they want to do education, fulfillment, forging a path, having purpose, meaning, et cetera but I don't want to give them too much so that they can do absolutely nothing, because that is when you start feeling more of a burden of having that. So there's a lot of interesting reflections in that first chapter based on that first question that we asked. Reflections in that first chapter based on that first question that we asked um, so around privilege, but around you know how wealth is so much more than just a monetary uh, value of wealth it's, you know, having wealth or feeling a worth. It's really about that fulfillment and having a purpose and meaning and for that the the impact that you can have on society through impact, investing or philanthropy, or through transformation, on sustainability in your family businesses that becomes something that fulfills and provides meaning to wealth in itself it sounds.
Speaker 3:It sounds to me, I mean part of anything else, nina. What's fascinating is it sounds like people were really quite candid with you. Um, uh, even as you started telling us about the, the methodology behind your report, I just thought, you know, even being able to achieve 60 interviews, 60 candid interviews with these people must have been a an amazing achievement. To be able to and then to go in deep and and have these discussions with them. It sounds fascinating.
Speaker 3:One I one question I've got for you because, um, and you've been involved in philanthropy for some time now. Before that was obviously humanitarian issues and, uh, either from your history or from what you, these discussions that you've had with people, um, do you find, do you think that the finance, the philanthropic strategies are shifting over time? And, um, is the language and linguistics of philanthropy changing, as is the way people frame, uh, what they're doing with philanthropy changing? And Is the way people frame what they're doing with philanthropy changing? And you're in the middle of this. I mean, nobody's better placed to chart. You talk about forging a path. I wonder whether that path is leading somewhere different for philanthropy. What's happening with language and the framing of philanthropy at the moment?
Speaker 4:Yeah, so philanthropy is not static, right, I think it's also with issues and focus areas, um, and what we see now obviously you're referring to language uh, yes, we, we are, uh, right now, very much talking about systems change. So it's, yeah, not fighting symptoms, but really we're looking into disrupting the whole system in which an issue is embedded at the moment. So we're really looking at systems change. What has been, uh, one positive trend I see, is that people are looking for collaboration as well. So whereas, uh, you know, when I started in this, people were maybe more working in isolation, uh, on their philanthropic initiatives, but and, and let's say, in projects, and they quote unquote, and they were working on projects here and there, whereas now we much more see people coming together into initiatives and really changing the status quo.
Speaker 4:So really having the system change philanthropy. We're also seeing, I mean this acknowledgement of power dynamics and we're looking at themes like racial and gender equality or trust-based philanthropy. We're looking at really listening to the communities when it comes to finding how to tackle root causes in philanthropy. So the extent that individuals and families and foundations are doing this varies, obviously, but I think that is definitely the shift and where we see it's a positive trend, let's say so. The collaboration also in doing collaborative philanthropy, sort of really pooling funding and making big bets on philanthropy. I think that's a very positive trend as well that we see more now and also taking these lenses like this gender lens or climate lenses on everything that they do.
Speaker 2:So not only doing it through giving and philanthropy, but also in with a lot of philanthropic organizations but also the NGOs who are in the recipient part of the philanthropy a lot. And what you said just now was very important and those sentences also got all the concepts behind, like we turned the tide from giving to responsibility, from just making a philanthropic effort, to the system. Different teams emerged, but all of them kind of supporting each other and maybe we do need that systemic change a lot, because in the report also it says that maybe still a bit more on the project related side, but the systemic change is coming in the flan trophy also, and what I wonder is we do need a huge systemic change, since now today we've got the climate crisis at hand, a global crisis that we're all facing and has many facades and many layers of problems. So do you think, with the interviews you have made with this next generation of the wealthy, do you think they can be positioned in this systemic change that we all need?
Speaker 4:Yeah, and, by the way, you mentioned how maybe it's difficult to get to 60. Actually it was very easy, so we thought that we would only get to interview, let's say, 20, 25. Everyone we asked was actually very happy to be part of this study most of them, and I think, because they do believe in this holistic approach, and that is also where it fits. On the one hand, I believe there's a good and great dialogue to be held here between individuals, any wealth holder, because they can play their part in no matter if it is through changing the way they're doing business or through the giving side, etc. If we're speaking about system change, we actually need all of those different dimensions and we need people to do that through the business side, through the investment side, through the giving side, et cetera, and to come together. So, yes, there is definitely room for individuals and families here.
Speaker 4:The most important trend, I think, when we look at philanthropy, is also that the blurring of lines. So the lines between traditional philanthropy, between impact investing, social investments, all those where we saw silos or lines, they're becoming much more blurred at the moment. Right, and so I think that is the most important thing here that people set out a vision or have a certain goal, and it doesn't really matter which approach they take in order to reach that goal, whether it is through giving or certain market based approaches or investing, and I think that whole ecosystem is needed for systems change, and everyone here plays a part there I think it's so fascinating this, nina, I'd love to I'd like this to be to have twice the time to talk, particularly because I absolutely love the the report that you've done, the methodology of doing interviews with people to to generate these insights uh, it's a process I personally love, so we could just get so into this.
Speaker 3:And on the blurring of the lines, I find that fascinating as well. I heard a new phrase yesterday. I've not heard before from somebody from Deloitte said that many investors now are looking for a greenium as well as a premium New thing. I didn't even know that greeniums existed, but now I do, courtesy of Deloitte. Just one last thing on impact, because the impact is in the title of your report and clearly is at the centre of your proposition. And is there still a gap between people's good intentions and the real hands-on impact that they have, and what are your thoughts on closing that gap between intentions and impact?
Speaker 4:Yes, there's a lot of good intentions out there. I feel, um, I you know this is the reason why they come to us as philanthropy advisors to support and navigate it's. It's not an easy world to navigate and it's a very introspective world as well the philanthropic space or the that sector. So I think receiving support with an advisor in that space definitely helps in order to turn your intentions into real hands-on impact. And this is not the guide to strategic philanthropy Now.
Speaker 4:This is for anyone to download and use and I think that could actually help just being very intentional about what clear goals you are setting, understanding the root causes and the systems in which this is, and then trying to reach systems change, having this, yeah, assessing the impact. All of this you can receive support in or download the guide, obviously, but there is support out there. It's not so easy to know, perhaps, that there are philanthropy advisors out there because it's not as a known profession. If you have a legal issue, you go to a lawyer, or a health issue you go to a doctor, but in terms of philanthropy, if you really want to make impact, there are philanthropy advisors out there and I think that could be helpful in closing that gap I would assume could be helpful in in closing that gap, I would assume, and also to partner up with uh good other funders and givers and impact investors out there that are caring for the same causes that you do brilliant, and we got the strategy document also from this conversation.
Speaker 2:We really want to go on forever, but I have to have to wrap us up in a minute, so this is our last question. Our network is ironically called Do Not Smile, because we need to make sustainability a subject that brings happiness into the world. So what object, place or person always makes you smile? Oh, my son.
Speaker 4:I have a young son who's seven years old and I guess he also brings that I mean to anyone who's got children, obviously this renewed and maybe even greater dedication to leave this planet thriving and sustainable for him and all the other next generation and future generations. But yeah, he makes me smile every day oh, that's a beautiful thing, nina.
Speaker 3:Well, I've absolutely loved our discussion and I am really fascinated. I continue to be fascinated by the world of the shifting world of philanthropy and the work that people like you do. I just think it's amazing. So thank you so much for taking time. Danla, do you want to wrap us up?
Speaker 3:so thanks to everyone who has listened to our good guys podcast, brought to you by the do not smile network of agencies and make sure you listen to future episodes, where we'll be talking to more amazing people like nina about how we can work together to create a more sustainable future for your son, nina. That's why we're doing it. So, damla Nina, see you soon.
Speaker 2:Bye.
Speaker 1:So much Bye. Good Geist, a podcast series on sustainability Hosted by Damla Özlüer and Steve Connor, brought to you by the DNS Network.
