GoodGeist
A podcast on sustainability, hosted by Damla Özlüer and Steve Connor, brought to you by the DNS Network. Looking at sustainability issues, communications, and featuring global guests from a wide variety of sectors such as business, NGOs and government.
GoodGeist
Hearts, Minds & Healthy Seas, with Veronika Mikos
In this episode we talk to Veronika Mikos, a former economist who became the driving force behind the Healthy Seas Foundation, an organisation that works on marine litter clean ups across the world, tackling one of our oceans' most invisible threats—ghost nets.
As Veronika explains, these abandoned nets represent just one aspect of the marine litter crisis facing our oceans. For over a decade, Healthy Seas has been building partnerships across industries and cultures to recover these nets and transform them into new products through innovative recycling systems.
We talk at length about the great work Healthy Seas does to use communications to further their mission, through powerful storytelling. Without advertising budgets, they've created award-winning documentaries, pioneered underwater live streams with Pierre-Yves Cousteau, and developed virtual reality experiences that bring the underwater world to those who may never dive.
As Veronika beautifully puts it, "People protect what they love, and they love what they understand."
Follow GoodGeist for more episodes on sustainability, communications and how creativity can help make the world a better place.
Good Geist, a podcast series on sustainability hosted by Damla Özler and Steve Connor, brought to you by the DNS Network.
Speaker 2:Hello, hello everyone, you are listening to Good Guys, the message on sustainability which is brought to you by the DNS Network, the global network of agencies dedicated to making the world a better place. This is Damla from Mirai Agency, istanbul, and.
Speaker 3:This is Steve from Creative Concern in Manchester. This podcast series explores global sustainability issues, how they're communicated and what creativity can do to make positive change happen.
Speaker 2:So in this episode we're going to talk to Veronica Mikos, director of the Healthy Seas Foundation and economist with 20 years of experience in managing international nature conservation projects. Veronica has been leading Healthy Seas since its inception and founded in 2013,.
Speaker 3:Healthy Seas is a foundation registered in the Netherlands with global reach, dedicated to tackling the problem of marine debris, with a particular focus on fishing nets, and to promote healthier aquatic ecosystems, and for more than 10 years, they've been building impactful collaborations, including with fishing communities, educators, harbour authorities. It's a long list, veronica, of the people you've worked with, so thank you so much for taking the time to talk to Damna and myself.
Speaker 4:Hello Damna Steve and hello everyone. It's an honour to be with you here today.
Speaker 2:It's great to have you today with us too, veronica. We always love to hear a bit of a personal story, so tell us, how does an economist become a champion of nature conservation?
Speaker 4:Indeed, it might not seem to be the direct connection, but just think about this If you like nature and you want to help nature, what you can do you can study biology or wildlife management. Most of these studies and professions focus on a narrow topic, which is not bad, as we need experts to focus on certain topics. I choose to study economics, ecotourism, business and biodiversity, basically because I wanted to somehow see and understand the bigger picture and also how certain sectors can use environment in a way that they don't destroy it. So that's the concept behind sustainable agriculture, sustainable fisheries or sustainable tourism, for example.
Speaker 4:So, since I graduated, I always worked for nature conservation. I always wanted to and I never had aspirations to become a banker or accountant or something like that. With my studies and knowledge, Well, it's totally appropriate, veronica.
Speaker 3:One of the the phrases in English which I love to use quite often is that the economy is a wholly owned subsidiary of the environment. So you move from economist to a saver of nature is totally appropriate. So, with that journey that you've been on, I think we could do with well. Now we know a little bit more about you. It'd be nice to know more about Healthy Seas and we you know, we've read online and learned about you that you reduce marine litter caused by lost fishing gear through cleanups, prevention, education activities. But in terms of framing that problem that you're focusing on, could you give our listeners a little bit of an insight into how much marine litter impacts on our ecosystems?
Speaker 4:Indeed, when we started about 11 years ago, the term marine litter was already widely known, but not so much ghost nets.
Speaker 4:Ghost nets are lost, abandoned or otherwise discarded fishing gear which keeps catching and killing marine life without human involvement. That's where the word ghost is coming from, and we started to focus on that specific problem phenomenon because we did have the right partners for that. We knew a group of divers who was dedicating their free time for sea cleanups. We got to know a recycling company which is incorporating fishing nets and other nylon end-of-life products into their recycling systems, and also producers, manufacturers of products who do use the regenerated nylon yarn made of these fishing nets. So it was just like pieces of puzzle coming together, a lucky moment in time when different groups of people with different interests came together and decided to work together. And that's how Health Disease was born. And indeed, as you mentioned, we have three key pillars cleanups, prevention and education. None of the three could live on its own without the others, and that's how we try to combine our efforts into a package for the biggest possible impact.
Speaker 2:So you're operating globally in all seas and building fishermen communities, and this is a very important part of your work. So can you tell us a bit about working in different cultures, different contexts, and how to navigate those differences? How does your daily life go with this?
Speaker 4:Indeed, we are active in about 20 countries on four continents and not every single sea original sea. But we try to cover as broadly as possible our geographical scope and this gives us a lot of challenges in terms of working with different people, different cultures. Fisherman fishing is an ancient tradition and I believe no one wakes up in the morning thinking, okay, I want to become a fisherman. This is something which goes from generation to generation, from father to son, and it's a very conservative sector. So for us environmentalists, it's been a little challenge at the beginning because we had to break down a lot of walls which were already built in the head of fishermen in general towards green, non-profits, environmentalists.
Speaker 4:They, by definition, think that we are their enemies and we blame them and we accuse them. We don't. We offer them cooperation, dialogue them. We don't. We offer them cooperation, dialogue. We want to help them to become more sustainable and more environmentally friendly in their operations. So in that sense, it's the same all over the world A conservative sector with a lot of walls around for us to break down. But once we engage in one community, one single fisherman, they become the multiplicator and they bring the message to other fishermen as well, and that's what we are really grateful for and lucky that we find these individuals in certain communities and, and I think, veronica, we want to, I think we want to get into.
Speaker 3:What's really clear is that you're using communications in an incredibly powerful way, um, and we want to talk about that in a minute because that's the focus of our podcast. So if we didn't talk about that, we'd have lost our way completely. But just just give us a sense that work that you're doing with quite conservative groups of practitioners, um, and, and an industry that's huge and global. Is the problem getting better or worse? Is marine litter on the turn? Are we? Are we seeing progress being made?
Speaker 4:in my opinion. Yes, from what I can see, uh, compared to 11 years ago, it doesn't mean that certain taps are still, um, closed, unfortunately not. Uh, what we often say is that we can't just keep mopping the floor with the tap open. So, uh, that's why prevention is important. But, uh, I really see positive change, especially with those communities we work with or other fellow organizations work with. So there is hope and there is positive change and, as usual, once we solve one problem, we face with three others. So that's, I think, more of a human thing rather than a sector-specific or communication-specific problem.
Speaker 4:But indeed, the power of communication, working with a creative team, using tools and platforms, is very key importance to us to be able to drive a change. We also have a saying that what we don't communicate about doesn't exist. At the beginning, when we started, we really didn't have good communications at all no person, no idea. We just started to do things because we were enthusiastic and then, very quickly, we learned by ourselves that if we don't have good photos, good videos, good tools to show what we are doing, then we act like ghosts. We still do very good things, beneficial things for the environment, but we can't get the message out to the broader public and not everyone is diving, can dive or wants to dive and for us, communication is a tool to bring that word closer to them and to bring the problem and the possible solutions closer to them.
Speaker 2:Well, you use a lot of different medias to get the message out, and I want to list some of them because it is very, very impressive track record. So you've organized the first live stream dive in Santorini, greece, with Pierre-Yves Cousteau. That is amazing. You have awareness campaigns with Olympic athletes. In 2021, you created a virtual reality experience and in 2024, you have won best environmental film prize at the Cannes World Film Festival. That is cool and impressive. So that was Journey to Ithaca and it was about the cleanup of an abandoned fish farm in Greece, and you are still working in Greece. This is your biggest project, as you mentioned before. Looking at all of this, how do you manage to keep it in one strategy? And also, how do you manage to reach to those people who will do these things for you, because many NGOs have the budget problem, and before the recording, you said that you never, never take paid advertisements as a principle. So how did you manage to do this and get away with a cons award? How did this happen?
Speaker 4:indeed, storytelling is key, so people protect what they love and they love what they understand. So this is the guiding principle behind our communication strategy and also defining what tools and platforms we use. In all this list, what you uh. Thank you very much for reminding me of all the history. What you just listed, indeed, somehow the stars aligned and it came to us. So we use different platforms to reach different audience, but we also need the positive view from the other side. Need the positive view from the other side.
Speaker 4:So, for example, engaging Pierre-Yves Cousteau and the live streaming Underwater was more like a challenge for us to even see. Could we do this? Would there be partners and interest in us? And then, when everyone said yes to that, then we got a little scared. Oh my God, now we really have to make it happen. Until, that was just a crazy idea to see whether it could work.
Speaker 4:And with the virtual reality and and the Cannes Film Festival and the documentary, it was just like a natural thing for us that we find those partners who believed in us and wanted to work with us. So, in my opinion, it's not necessarily a budget question, because we are not an organization with any high communication budget at all. It's more of finding interest from the other side, or from those from other sectors who believe in you and who can also see benefits for themselves to work with you. So for us, this is how basically it looks like, and that's why it's also very important to mention that with the business partners we collaborate, we 100% depend on donations, so we do not receive public funding from governments, european Union or other sources, but all those private companies, individuals, who decide to support us with their donations and be part of positive change involving their employees, customers, stakeholders basically, they enable us to continue doing what we are doing and this way, our success is also their success.
Speaker 3:Well, it is an amazing track record, veronica, and your approach is amazing. I think if I were the director of campaigns at a global NGO with quite a big budget, I'd still be quite jealous of you, because, essentially, what you have may not be a big budget, but you've got the most perfect elements of a beautiful story great locations, a dramatic proposition for people, divers, great footage. Um, I I'm not surprised because yours is an incredibly compelling story. But I'm going to move us on because I'd like to go back a couple of steps to the educational work that you do, um, and to, uh, the fact that I think we read that you'd engaged with like 10,000 people in 72 events all over the world and engaged, uh, over a thousand Fisher fishermen, presumably mostly male, I would have thought uh in in fishing farms. Could you tell us a little bit about that educational work and its impact? Are you, are you shifting the mindset of an industry almost through that educational work? And, um, and what's your dream around that? Where's it going to go next?
Speaker 4:indeed, educational work we do at different levels uh, in schools, primary schools, high schools, university students we run different workshops. So that's the strictly. Yeah, if you look at the word education, that's that's strictly. In schools, primary schools, high schools, university students, we run different workshops. So that's just strictly. Yeah, if you look at the word education, that's strictly that.
Speaker 4:Also, public awareness raising events and engaging fishermen, fish farmers, into various actions. So involving people is very, very important for us. We cannot stay those environmentalists in the background or underwater, in the shade, like I mentioned, because for change and for a big impact, a bigger scale, we need the people to understand why they should care. So that's actually the principle behind our education programs. And, yeah, what's next for health, disease? We hope to scale up, implement more cleanups, have more partnerships, more impact.
Speaker 4:All these figures I mentioned are important, but what I also like to emphasize and I always tell it to everybody is that figures are not the ultimate measurement for success.
Speaker 4:Yes, the amount of kilograms and tons of waste we recover is important. The amount of children we physically involve in our programs is important. It's less tangible or easy to measure online the impact we have because, just like you find us and you looked into our work. You talked about it to your colleagues, not to your network. You know we can never measure 100% exactly what impact we make through the online ways of communications, and I have many, many stories from school programs and children, when they go home at the dinner table on the same day, discuss with their parents of why is it important to protect the seas, how the marine animals are impacted by this, and many of these you can't measure. There is no figure you can attach to it, but for sure there is an awareness raising and an educational element which makes this world a better place. So, with or without figures, it's very important for us and other similar organizations to do this work.
Speaker 2:You are really a passionate sea lover. We know that because, before this recording, steve just showed us a beautiful sea view. Because you're in Cornwall, right, steve, and we were all.
Speaker 3:He's from Cornwall.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So can you tell us the secret when you are reaching out to the people and you're just gathering them around your cause, how do you pass this passion on to other people?
Speaker 4:Steve, no, that was for you Veronica.
Speaker 2:Oh, sorry, that was a question to me.
Speaker 3:I can answer it too, veronica. I mean you know, but no, this is about you, this podcast, not me.
Speaker 4:No, thank you, okay, sorry, it sounded like a passionate. No, thank you, okay, sorry, you can sound like a professional person to me as well. Okay, then let me answer different. So thank you, domna. That's really, really kind of you. I think if you do what you love, you never look at it like you have a job. So that's something that I also say to all students. It's like you know, you can be a banker, a lawyer, or you can be an influencer, if you like, or just a simple environmentalist. Do what you have a calling for, and once you engage in that activity, you will never have a job anymore. You will just enjoy doing what you believe in. So I think in my case it's like that. So I'm not looking at the days or the hours of the days, what I'm working, because I believe in what I'm doing. And this is what we hope also our partners, collaborators, our network to see that we exist not for the sake of existence. We exist in order to solve a problem step by step. We don't say we can do it alone.
Speaker 3:We hope to be a source of inspiration for others similar organizations, similar initiatives, group of people, any corner in the world to try to do something in their own community and environment so, with that, with that phrase in any corner of the world hanging in the air, veronica, um, I would love to ask you, um, if you had a great map of the world in front of you and where you think that the problem of marine litter is most profound or places where healthy seas could make the biggest impact. You're currently on a really important project in Greece, and that's where you're speaking to us from, but it would be lovely to hear from you what do you think in terms of geography, healthy season needs to go in the future, and are there parts of the world that you'd really like to work in?
Speaker 4:Different corners of the world have different problems. We might think that Europe is well-organized, with a lot of law and regulations and everything is in place, but unfortunately here, for example in Greece, there is a huge problem about abandoned fish farms. So I wouldn't dare to say what everyone else says, that Asia and Africa are the hotspots of marine litter in the world. In some corners of Europe we can also find really terrible situations. So we go where we find strong local partners, reliable partners, and where we have sponsors to support us to go to. So basically, these are the two key elements which define where we go and on a longer term, indeed, we hope to expand our geographical scope, and anyone is free to reach out to us. Our doors are open. It's about partnerships, both to organizations and to individuals.
Speaker 2:So we love to connect. So you're in. You're working in greece and ghana and other seas as well. Can you just give us a list where, at the moment, you are working?
Speaker 4:um yeah, in asia we are active in south korea, in hong kong um looking into setting up activities in the Philippines. In Africa, we are active in Egypt, in the Red Sea, which is one of the most beautiful places on Earth for colors and marine life and also deserves our attention. Ghana, in Africa. We work in Europe, all over actually every regional seas, and in America we are present in the USA.
Speaker 2:So what's next for healthy disease? What do you have in front of you? Are there any cooking projects or are there any cooking new documentaries to be awarded?
Speaker 4:Yeah, let's see what the future brings. We have a new documentary which we really, really love. Hope your audience will love it too, if they look it up. It's about ghost farms abandoned fish farms. The title is Ghost Farms Reclaiming Waters. That's showcasing the four years of our work in Greece. It's been released like two weeks ago, so it's very, very fresh. Yes, we see how it will be picked up. We also hope to have a bigger focus on education and prevention projects. Cleanups are still the most appealing ones in terms of visuals and storyline and something which the public appreciates the most, but I can't stop emphasizing that prevention and education is as important for a bigger change as only cleanups, and we hope to focus more on scientific projects. So we will launch hopefully at least one, maybe two, this year. So please keep an eye on our channels and, yeah, hope to bring in some new exciting activities on the top of the current ones.
Speaker 3:Brilliant. So, yes, a new documentary to go and check out straight away. And I'd love to talk to you further, veronica. We're just about at the end now, so I'm going to ask you the last question, but I'd love to talk more Particularly. We've only sort of skipped across the surface of fish farming as an industry, but it's really interesting, isn't it? And I'm sure you know working with indigenous fisher communities must be interesting. You know, working with indigenous fisher communities must be interesting, but fish farming as an industry is very complex and its impact on ecosystems is really complex as well. So maybe next time we'll go deep, we'll dive deep into fish farming. Final question, veronica, if you don't mind, is our network is ironically called Do Not Smile, because we need to make sustainability a subject that brings happiness into the world. So we'd like to ask you what object, place or person always makes you smile.
Speaker 4:If I can say happy, animals make me smile. Well, when I see a turtle or dolphin swimming free and happy in their natural environment so it's not an object, not a place, not a person, but I'm really an animal lover. So also when I see animals in need, for example, stray cats or dogs, and I get them food and love, or I see other people giving that, that really, really makes me smile. I believe all animals on this planet deserve our love and appreciation.
Speaker 3:Wow. Well, first of all, as a very long-standing vegan and animal rights activist, I totally agree. Um, I also think we need to look on that, look at that final question down there and see whether we need to make it less anthropocentric. Anyway, but, veronica, it's been such a delight talking to you. Thank you so much. The work you're doing is amazing, absolutely extraordinary and literally sort of direct impact on the ground, so it's been wonderful having this conversation with you. Damla, do you want to close us out?
Speaker 2:So thanks to everyone who has listened to our Good Guys podcast, brought to you by the Do Not Smile network of agencies.
Speaker 3:And make sure you listen to future episodes, where we'll be talking to more amazing people like Veronica about how we can work together to create a more sustainable future. So, veronica, damla, see you soon.
Speaker 4:Bye. Thank you very much.
Speaker 1:Good Geist, a podcast series on sustainability hosted by Damla Özler and Steve Connor, brought to you by the DNS Network.
