GoodGeist
A podcast on sustainability, hosted by Damla Özlüer and Steve Connor, brought to you by the DNS Network. Looking at sustainability issues, communications, and featuring global guests from a wide variety of sectors such as business, NGOs and government.
GoodGeist
Digitalisation for Sustainability, with Joep Bresser
Join us as we explore the intersection of digital technologies, STEM education and sustainability with our guest, Joep Bresser from Platform Talent for Technology. Discover how Joep's passion for tech education is driving efforts to make these fields more accessible and inclusive, particularly for women.
We also look at the unique challenges and opportunities for SMEs navigating the digitalization wave, particularly as they strive to become more sustainable, and we discuss the transformative potential of collaborative platforms that unite entrepreneurs, educators, and students to lead us towards sustainable development.
The episode wraps with a critical look at European education systems and their readiness to equip young minds with the vital STEM skills needed in our rapidly evolving world.
Follow GoodGeist for more episodes on sustainability, communications and how creativity can help make the world a better place.
Good Geist, a podcast series on sustainability hosted by Damla Özler and Steve Connor, brought to you by the DNS Network.
Speaker 2:Hello, hello everyone, you are listening to Good Guys, the message on sustainability which is brought to you by the DNS Network, the global network of agencies dedicated to making the world a better place. This is Damla from Mira Agency, istanbul, and.
Speaker 3:This is Steve from Creative Concern in Manchester. This podcast series explores global sustainability issues, how they're communicated and what creativity can do to make positive change happen.
Speaker 2:So in this episode we're going to talk to Joep Bressa, the project leader and stakeholder manager of Platform Talent for Technology, an independent, non-profit organization created by the Dutch Ministries of Economic Affairs, Education and Social Affairs to support the implementation of national STEM strategies.
Speaker 3:So we're going to get deep into STEM with Joep, and he was also a policy advisor to the Netherlands House for Education Research, which works with the Dutch knowledge sector. I think I'm getting this right, joep, to inform the sector about European policy policy and facilitates european policy influencing for its members. So you thank you so much for joining damla and myself yeah, very happy to be here.
Speaker 4:Thank you for uh inviting me. I'm very happy uh to to talk and uh lead you through uh stem education today I don't, and I don't think we've, I don't think we've covered that yet so far.
Speaker 3:It's been a full year of podcasting-ness and we haven't looked at this particular part of the sustainability jigsaw puzzle, so it's very exciting. So, first of all, we always like to love to hear our guests background, so tell us about your personal journey, on how you became a leading figure in science and STEM education.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so I started working at the Platform Talent for Technology last February and, yeah, actually since my education, since my studies, I always have been interested in education. I think it's a personal motivation to work for this sector, and specifically STEM education. So science, technology, engineering and mathematics. Engineering and mathematics I think it's important because if you look at the big challenges of today of the world, it's a lot of these challenges. They revolve around these STEM disciplines.
Speaker 4:We really, for example, for building windmills at sea or greening our cities, I did not get in touch enough to my feeling, with these technologies and it was not covered that much at my high school and there were not that many possibilities to learn it. And even when I had to choose my personal education profile, I was told that I could not combine the subject of history with technology-related disciplines and I think that's some flaws in the system. That makes me personally motivate to give students that come after me that are currently in school education, to give them the opportunities to get in touch with it study, because I think if I had those opportunities before maybe I would have chosen it over a, yeah, social study that I now pursue, still happy about it, but I think so, so interesting, so interesting, that whole.
Speaker 3:I'm sorry I'm going completely off script here. You, I'm so interested about this because, um, you have you still in education, don't you? You have what we'd call in English a fork in the road where you're either going to do social humanities or you're going to do technology. And I remember I was in the same position as you when I was at school and you had to make your choices about your subjects, and I said I'd really like to do computer science and art because I think, you know, I think digital creativity is the future. And and they just said, no, no, you can't do that, that's not possible, that doesn't exist. It's hilarious, no, so fascinating.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think it's really important to to make sure that these combinations can be better utilized in the future and, like we see it, like in the whole discussion on STEM education, that they also say like we need to add an A to the STEM, the STEAM, to also be able to combine it with arts or social sciences, and yeah, I think it's a challenge on how to design the education system in a way that will be possible. I think there are already good examples, of course, but yeah, I think more needs to be done on that front.
Speaker 2:I think that's kind of music to my ears because I was always fan of interdisciplinary and multidisciplinary works, and this also happens to be another discussion. With the modernization we had this very deep professionalism and very framed fields, and now we're once again talking about a more broader approach and bring different disciplines together. Along the way of the journey of humans, we are trying to figure out what is best to get the best of us, every individual. So I will move to next question, because I know that is a discussion that we want to talk about for hours, with the French philosophers also involved. Steve, I know that, but I have to keep us checked.
Speaker 2:So can we talk about your work with the Platform Talent for Technology a bit? It has been tasked by the government to coordinate the implementation of the Technology Pact in Netherlands, which is a joint initiative of central government, the organized business community, the trade unions, the education community and the regions that means everybody, I think and the objectives of the technology pact cover the entire education chain, from primary education to labor market. So, with this in mind and what we have talked now, where do you think is a starting point to intervening in this chain? I?
Speaker 4:think, like what is the basis of the platform, talent for Technology and also the technology pack that, in order to like, everyone feels welcome to work in a technology related sector, which is not always the case yet.
Speaker 4:But if you talk about where you need to intervene, when you need to intervene, you need to intervene.
Speaker 4:That's as early as possible, so that's really already starting with primary education and maybe even before that, in the early childhood care, because that's where already, if you talk, for example, about gender equality and women choosing STEM subjects, that's where a lot of the prejudices and where a lot of the prejudices are already formed, where some biases are created, where girls might not feel to be fit for a STEM study. So that's why we believe that you need to intervene in the primary schools already and to get people in touch with technology and create a technology-inclusive culture. One of the programs we are running at the platform it's called TechKwadraat, which is an initiative by the Dutch government, supported by our organization science centers, museum, parental organizations to really create a supportive environment for people from all different backgrounds to get in touch with technology. And I think that's where you need to start and that's also the point where the fix is probably still the easiest, where you can still influence children, and the later you start, the more difficult it is to fix the issues in the system.
Speaker 3:Got to start early. Start as early as you can. That's the thing, isn't it? I don't know whether you've um noticed it, but uh, the even mattel, the makers of barbie are getting in on the action here. I don't know whether you've spotted that they've released a series of barbies, apparently, who are all renewable energy engineers. How?
Speaker 3:cool is that I mean, that's it, yeah, that's it. But I wanted to talk about the themes that you cover, because you bring together, don't you, a range of things for in the work that you do with SMEs. You bring digitalization, sustainability, inclusion together in the work that you do at PTVT, so at the platform. So how do all these themes work together? How do you create a narrative around those themes when you're working, for example, with businesses or public partners, private partnerships between SMEs and education and government.
Speaker 4:And our belief is that for SMEs, especially the very small companies, it might be very difficult for them to include issues like digitalization, sustainability and inclusion because they have to do it next to running their day-to-day business.
Speaker 4:So when they're completely on their own, it's very difficult to make these changes, and that's why we, as a platform, try to intervene and help them with stimulating digitalization, sustainability and inclusion. For example, we have a program called Digital Workplaces where we create a local space for people entrepreneurs from SMEs, teachers and students to meet and together work on digitalization challenges and in that way, by combining the strengths of the students, of the teachers, of the entrepreneurs, we can bring the digitalization into the SMEs. And the same goes for themes like sustainability and inclusion where, for example, if you look at reskilling and upskilling in SMEs, it's also very difficult to organize for a small SME. But what if you put a couple of SMEs in the same sector together and provide a training program for multiple SMEs to upskill their employees? That's how you really make sure that their employees are trained and that they can upskill themselves, that they are better prepared in the labor market for the fast technological development. So that's how we try to bring these issues into the SMEs and, yeah, that's really the core of our platform.
Speaker 2:So it's kind of you are just chopping every aspect to little parts that we won't choke on, and then you work with them so that we can get to the bigger issues bit by bit. That's what I hear from what you say, but could you let's dive a little bit more into the sustainability aspect of this. What does digitalization bring to the table for sustainable development, and how does the established education system respond to the past changes in tech?
Speaker 4:system respond to the past changes in tech?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think digitalization and sustainability is a complex issue in a sense that I think it can provide both opportunities, but it also poses big, big challenges.
Speaker 4:So I think digitalization brings a lot of opportunities to drive sustainable development in a way that we see within our platform, agriculture using digital technologies, where it's really part of the solution to to drive, to to drive sustainable development in society. And also, I think education systems can greatly benefit from digital technologies in making greatly benefit from digital technologies in making teaching and learning more personalized and making it more like the real world and making sure that education becomes more attractive and and that we can use, for example, gamification in a way to create nice learning environments. On the other hand, if you ask me the question is the education system prepared for the fast technological changes? My answer would have to be I'm not sure yet, like I think that a lot still needs to be done to make sure that education systems are responsive. I think we are lagging behind on issues like digital literacy of both teachers and students, which really impedes uh, yeah, the uh impedes the way that education system can respond to to technical technological changes yeah, getting into that.
Speaker 3:I mean, I, I completely agree with you and and uh, one thing I find frustrating in the UK educational system is that pretty much computer science is learning to use Microsoft software products and that's it. And my kids come home and they go what did you do in IT and computing today? Oh, we did a PowerPoint presentation, and they go. My God, why weren't you learning some code, for God's sake? And so it really really winds me up. So, from what you're saying there, do you think you know we've got a climate crisis, a biodiversity crisis, increasingly polarized society, and the polarization is often facilitated through digital networks, so there's a lot of complexity in this system. And from what you're saying, do you think that education currently, particularly in Europe as we understand it when it comes to technology and STEM, is just simply not equipping young people for the future that they need to confront right now?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think that is definitely the case.
Speaker 4:When you take a look, for example, on the integration of a subject like computer science, but also other technology-related subjects, in the curricula, there are only a few examples you can name in Europe where countries are integrating this into the primary and high school curricula, but we see in a lot of cases still that it is either not offered at all or that it is an optional course.
Speaker 4:And, yeah, we need to be realistic and we EU STEM coalition to not only make impact in the Netherlands but also make impact all across Europe and put STEM education really high on the agenda of the EU and of all the governments and to make sure that there's more investment in it. And I think lately, um, there's more urgency being felt. The european commission just announced a strategic stem education plan, um, because they analyzed the the future of competitiveness for the EU and they found that if we don't educate enough people in STEM, then this will hurt our competitiveness. This will hurt the transitions that we are going through. We really need the people to build this new, more sustainable society and I'm happy that it is now on the higher on the agenda. And now it's also about implementation and seeing what member states are going to do the coming years to make sure that STEM education is more part of the education system.
Speaker 2:As we're talking about the system and the big picture, I just want to go off script and ask you something. 12 years ago I think it was 12 or 13 years ago we were working with this very, very prestigious university in Turkey and we were preparing their magazine and every issue was having this one rhetorical question and this big question we were trying to answer. And on that particular issue, we were talking about education. In Turkish, we have the saying that education is a must. So we just got the phrase and turned it are schools a must? So that was our question then, because the technology was changing, the behavior of the students were changing, but the policymakers and the teachers were not digital borns or digital natives. We were all digital newcomers. We didn't have this in our lives.
Speaker 2:So we were just probing around the question that we are the schools, be enough as they are. And then we had COVID, and then all the societies around the world just experienced the education from home and not from the classrooms, and then, after that, we saw that we also need the human connection. Then, after that, we saw that we also need the human connection. We also need to come together for a fruitful learning environment. So I want to ask you with these questions in mind, with the technology turning and with the experience we had during the pandemic, how do you see the education system and the schools as they are right now? Can you just take us a picture? What are the best prospects we can get from both sides the digitalization and the also on-site education, where we all come together?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I do think, actually, that maybe the pandemic was for schools and education a bit like it was, in a way, also beneficial, because I think a lot of schools made huge steps on embracing digitalization, steps on embracing digitalization. The question is, is this now a fundamental change that happens after the pandemic, or will we return to the situation before the pandemic? I think it is now also the test to make sure that it continuously will remain a part of education and the schools. I think they did a good job there and now it's time for the next steps. I think we are now more prepared for a next pandemic.
Speaker 4:I hope it doesn't happen, but, yeah, we now know better how to work with digital tools. But I think there is also a lot of challenges left when it comes to the fast developments now in in artificial intelligence, in um other, like new technologies, and how to embrace this. So I think we are the pandemic was was a big step, but now we need to continue with with digitalizing our schools, and I think it remains very difficult for some schools and some teachers to keep track of these technological developments, and I think we also, in that sense, need to help schools with school business partnerships, for example, by bringing so-called hybrid teachers into schools, and that's come from the companies that know a lot about the new technologies that can provide part of the teaching. Especially with the current teacher shortages, I think we really should look into these kind of solutions to bring digitalization even more to the schools than we have done so far.
Speaker 3:So just for Dan's benefit, on that, joep, I thought I'd throw in a French philosopher and quote Jean Baudrillard, who said about artificial intelligence. He said the sad thing about artificial intelligence is that it lacks artifice and therefore lacks intelligence. So that's one for you to have a little bit of a think about later. But sadly we are right at the end of our 25 minutes, so I'm just going to ask you one more question, joep, which I hope you're ready for. Um, which is our network, is ironically called do not smile, because we know that we need to make sustainability a subject that brings happiness into the world. So our question is what object, place or person always makes you smile?
Speaker 4:um, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, uh say, um, I'm a huge fan of music and you, you mentioned, uh, that you're also, like, very much involved in culture, and, um, I, I really love the music of massive attack, which is a a great artist for its music, but it's also kind of a frontrunner for driving sustainability.
Speaker 4:Already from their first albums in the 1990s, they were singing about about the impact of climate change, and now you see that we, when they tour, for example, that they are the greenest artists in the whole world and trying to also make their fans going to their concerts by trains, making sure that their own concerts have as little impact on society as possible, and I think we need these frontrunners in all sectors of our society. So this is just an example of the music industry. But, yeah, we really need some frontrunners that can help changing the system, and that's also what we try to do at our platform. We stimulate these smart partnerships, innovative solutions to show how it can also be done, how you can change the system, and yeah, we need to show that and then, hopefully, it will then lead to a more systemic change. But we first need the good examples, like Massive Attack, to show what is possible.
Speaker 3:Brilliant, I love it. Massive Attack that's blown my mind a little bit. I thought we'd peak with Jean Baudrillard, but no Massive Attack was coming. A little bit I thought we'd peak with john baudrillard, but no massive attack was coming. The um and I don't know whether you've just seen your, but uh, 3d um actually did an interview this week where they refused to go to coachella in the state it's a ridiculously unsustainable location.
Speaker 4:So, oh, awesome, right, I'm gonna listen to the massive attack when we're done I'm gonna see them next year in Down the Rabbit Hole, a festival in the Netherlands which is not in a desert. It might be rainy Exactly.
Speaker 3:Very likely. Oh, amazing, that's been such a good conversation. Damla over to you.
Speaker 2:So thanks to everyone who has listened to our Good Guys podcast, brought to you by the Do Not Smile network of agencies.
Speaker 3:And make sure you listen to future episodes where we'll be talking to more amazing people like you about how we can work together to create a more sustainable future. So both of you see you soon.
Speaker 2:Bye.
Speaker 1:Bye, good Guys. A podcast series on sustainability Hosted by Damla Özler and Steve Connor, brought to you by the DNS Network.
