GoodGeist
A podcast on sustainability, hosted by Damla Özlüer and Steve Connor, brought to you by the DNS Network. Looking at sustainability issues, communications, and featuring global guests from a wide variety of sectors such as business, NGOs and government.
GoodGeist
The Politics of Design, with Sana Iqbal
Can design be a catalyst for social change, rather than just a tool for selling products? We talk to Sana Iqbal, the visionary founder of Studio Sana, who shares her powerful journey of blending design with activism. Growing up as a Muslim woman in a post-9/11 world, Sana's experiences sparked a commitment to activism at a young age. Her story shines a light on how personal experiences and historical events can shape a path toward creative activism and social justice.
Join us as we explore the compelling intersection of design and activism, questioning why impactful design often serves commercial purposes rather than societal ones. We also turn our focus towards sustainability and workers' rights within the design industry.
And, as ever, we have a moment when we question whether what we do can ever be genuinely sustainable!
Follow GoodGeist for more episodes on sustainability, communications and how creativity can help make the world a better place.
Good Geist, a podcast series on sustainability hosted by Damla Özler and Steve Connor, brought to you by the DNS Network.
Speaker 2:Hello, hello everyone, you are listening to Good Guys, the message on sustainability which is brought to you by the DNS Network, the global network of agencies dedicated to making the world a better place. This is Damla from Mira Agency, istanbul, and.
Speaker 3:This is Steve from Creative Concern in Manchester. This podcast series explores global sustainability issues, how they're communicated and what creativity can do to make positive change happen.
Speaker 2:So in this episode we're going to talk to the campaigning designer and creative force of nature that is Sana Iqbal, the founder of Studio Sana. She works across a number of sectors, blurring the lines between design and activism, supporting social justice causes and progressive movements.
Speaker 3:Sana has judged for prestigious industry awards, haven't you, Sana? Such as D&AD, New Blood White Pencil that's exciting Creative Review, Annual Awards 2023,. Spoken at a host of design festivals, which I'm not going to list all of them because there's quite a lot on how to use graphic design for social justice and run politics and design events, and full disclosure is a good friend of Creative Concern. So, Sana, thank you so much for coming to talk to Dana and myself.
Speaker 4:Thank you, that's quite an introduction. I feel really humbled to hear all of that. So thank you so much Sana.
Speaker 2:That's quite a resume at the moment and it just grows and grows. But first of all, we love to get the full backstory from our guests. What led you to become an activist, designer and rebel with a cause? I may say.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's a really good question and I'll probably just be honest in saying, like, growing up, particularly as, like a brown Muslim woman after 9, 11 kind of made politics part of my life, whether I liked it or not. I think I remember it happening when I was in sec, in primary school actually, and I remember like this because I was the only brown kid in my school, um, and I remember that shift of all my um classmates where I didn't see myself any different and suddenly, overnight the whole dynamic changed and that's when I was really kind of awakened to like who I was, my identity, um, but also a really sad realization of um having the need to step forward to protect myself and my family, my community, um, and then, in terms of like design, well, that's a really funny story, um, because design again wasn't something which was part of my vocabulary growing up. Um, like, again, my background, a lot of my family work in the markets actually used to be like market traders and like Glossop and Manchester, so it wasn't like graphic design was not even a thing I knew about, if I'm really honest, I didn't even know what that was interlidded art, foundation, um, but I always loved creativity. Like in a household. It was always like um, you know how would we make the market store windows like, um, like displays, really beautiful, so people come in and buy all the way to like do the lettering on the little really cool, um, like no stickers, like the neon ones you would get on the market stores like I used to be part of that um, but then also, being South Asian, like all the clothing would wear. So lots of creativity, like in my life, but then specifically design um that came from um a really sad incident which happened in my secondary school. Um, so this was um back in 2005.
Speaker 4:So this was when I was in secondary school and when another war on Gaza was happening, and I remember again being a student and basically feeling really upset by the scenes I was seeing on the tv screen, but also like, really confused. I was like, why aren't the adults doing anything? Like I think as a child, as a young person, you always find it really odd. Like you see really bad things happen and you think, oh, this is really simple solution, but why aren't the adults in the room doing anything? Um, I also was very aware of like, um the like sensitivities around that subject, so I remember like coordinating. Like it's really funny when I look back.
Speaker 4:I remember coordinating like um, it was like ISOC, which was like the Islamic society, it was like Jewish society and Christian union. Like I was like we need it all together because, in the end of the day, we're all kids and we just don't want this to happen anymore. So that's what I did. I remember we would all meet together and like campaign against this and I wanted it to be something which the charity committee would raise money for. But in doing so long story short I got myself in really big trouble. Like our group was disbanded. We had a really bad teacher who was like I was causing lots of trouble and all sorts of things, and I was really confused. I was like I don't know how this is like a bad thing. That's surely like unifying people and trying to like ask for peace is a good thing. And on the tv, one day I remember seeing um Tony Benn, do you?
Speaker 3:know who Tony Benn is. I think for our international listeners we'll have to explain. Tony Benn is a was a vintage Labour politician, wasn't he?
Speaker 4:Sana Listeners will have to explain. Tony Blaine was a vintage Labour politician, wasn't?
Speaker 2:he Sana.
Speaker 4:Yeah, like real socialist.
Speaker 2:That's a nice way to describe him. You are very nice people.
Speaker 4:I think he's like.
Speaker 3:I would call him like a hero of his time.
Speaker 4:He really had strong moral policies and he was on the news on the BBC, had strong like moral policies, like, and he was on the news on the BBC and the BBC basically wasn't allowing um the DEC appeal to basically run, which is again raising money for um, for Gaza and for the war, and he just went on and just did it.
Speaker 4:He was like, well, if you're not going to run the advert, I'm going to just tell everybody who's watching, like what the numbers are so people can give money.
Speaker 4:Like again, it's so bizarre, like, regardless of your connections, like people suffering, like we should be supporting everybody um. So I remember seeing him on the news and being like, oh my god, I need to like write to him because I I'm going through this in my school. I need to like um like connect and he was really supportive through like kind of the horrendous treatment I had at my secondary school and I remember like um, like through that journey, asking him at the end like, oh, I don't know what to do because I really like um art and I found like through me basically being told I wasn't allowed to talk about it anymore and I was like basically censored. I basically used my art GCSE to paint about it instead. So I painted about Palestine. I painted about um. I remember bringing like Guernica and like Banksy, and expressed what was happening in that way and instead that actually got on to winning the Lowry art prize.
Speaker 4:Um, so I was like, oh, I didn't know what to do, because one part of me wanted to like be like a human rights lawyer and talk about these issues, but then seeing like this censorship which can happen, but actually using like literally the paintbrush to speak about instead, was really successful, as I get to do and he was like there's so many people in like politics we don't need any more.
Speaker 4:If anything, we need people like you and like the communications, um, because people underestimate like the power of art, and that was like advice on that, son and, by the way, I think that's the best backstory we've had, actually.
Speaker 3:Oh, by the way, tony ben was a vegetarian as well. Just putting that in there, um, uh. So my next question is on exactly that, santa, which is given the you the big picture, one, really, which is that you've been discussing and thinking about the intersection between design and politics for so long. What's your big picture take on the, the connection of those two worlds, particularly at this time when we've got rising populism, more division out there? What's how does how, what? What is your take on design and politics?
Speaker 4:there's no like separation. I think this is where I've always had a source of frustration, like that story then shows you how they're interconnected, and even more so if you look historically like I remember studying Mussolini at history and I was like thrown by how he suppressed like theatre. You know he would take over the radio. He hired his own graphic design team and the reason like a dictator like him did that because he understood the power of communication. And you see that today. You see that how the far right is harnessing communications, whether it's through the use of like TikTok videos or influencers, or awful like graphics where you see them purposely using you know images of like immigrants in a way, and contrasting that with you know like racist rhetoric essentially so for me it's always been like pulled together, it's never been separate.
Speaker 4:However, my kind of frustration does come from more progressive movements, separating the two and not seeing that connection, because I remember thinking when I did study graphic design, like how come we can't use all this power we have but instead of selling just toothpaste, why can't we sell? Um, you know the behavioral changes we need for climate change, why can't we sell? You know peace and like love, and I know it sounds really cliche, but it's also what's really needed and you do see separation of the two spaces. I'm even like looking at today's politics. I'm looking at how reform has a very consistent message and you look at what images are using versus, let's say, uk Labour, like they don't have the same consistent narrative. The images aren't kind of trying to paint a different alternative or like a much more unified vision. And already I feel like that's where my kind of passion comes into in trying to make sure progressive politicians, progressive movements, are harnessing that power for good. It's interesting.
Speaker 2:You mentioned Mussolini and the oppressive graphic and the power of the graphic used, because just today I was just going through my library and I have this amazing book of an exhibition made like 12 years ago or 15 years ago in Istanbul, and the name of the exhibition was Propaganda and they just collected the graphic works of the oppressive systems and fascism and all the exhibition is about how those strong graphics were put in use in the oppressive systems when the far right was rising. So, yes, you are right, but on the other hand, we have other great examples, I think so, in your mind. Can you give us your greatest hits, your greatest design works that worked for the good, like the original Barack Obama's Peace, hope or anything else? What would you say were the greatest hits?
Speaker 4:Oh, so I'm from like the positive side. That's a really good question, because I do focus a lot of my energy at the moment looking at the far right, so it's really good to look back historically as well where we have taken it. I do feel like the work, for example, I know being done in America for like the Sunrise Movement, has been fantastic. There's a really good agency there called Tandem who made beautiful kind of visionary green posters which I remember when looking at them here in the UK I was like wow, I'm really moved by it. Um, I will bring up Obama because it was so good. Um, and again, it was also good because it was different of that time it had a much more hopeful narrative but also had like worldwide appeal. It wasn't just patriotic in like the American sense. I remember seeing people across the world like wearing um those kind of t-shirts as well um, but also somebody I think is really um.
Speaker 4:A movement which is really good from a design perspective is also the Black Panther movement.
Speaker 4:Like their design work is just like out there, or and I mean like the design detail all the way from like their costumes to their posters, to their narrative and what they're trying to say, but also their actions, because, again, with bands, it's not just about, you know, the visual element, it's like the behavior, the tone of voice.
Speaker 4:So for me they were really fantastic, because one thing I always think about, and I think movements now should be thinking about, is things like, um, the breakfast clubs they introduced. And that was really important because it wasn't just them saying, hey, you know, our communities um are mistreated, we need to rise up. Actually, they had a solution as well. They're like okay, we're going to build that community power, we're also going to give you what you need, which is, um, these breakfast clubs, which is a great source for people to come together, um, be warm, build community but also feed like children and people. Um, I feel like, in a way, movements have to go back to the past and look at where we are now with austerity and rebuild that community trust, rebuild almost like solidarity across all workers, but not just saying, okay, here's all the problems, or just saying lips of actually doing something as well, and I guess that's only so much a designer can control, because we can't necessarily do all that doing.
Speaker 3:Aren't you right, sana? No, it's. The frustrating thing for us as communicators is we can only get people so far, and then you know. But I do think as well, let's give it another plug. Tandem in the US, because you were introduced me to their work and I just thought it was absolutely beautiful. So I'm with you. So I want to ask you about your take on the wider design industry, because Damla myself, you we all work for social good, don't we? That's what gets us out of bed in the morning. But you've now joined one of the D&AD judging panels. Congratulations on that. That's amazing. And so you've had a chance to really look at the wider design industry, and where do you think its ethos is at the moment? Are we, as clean creatives, winning, or is there still a huge industry out there that's high carbon, objectifying people? What's your take on the design industry as a whole?
Speaker 4:I think we've done big progress, like, if I look where we were like, like, for example, that I remember when I was at uni and now that wasn't too long ago that um, like like European central design was what was seen as good. Now, actually, I remember, um, when I was judging for D&AD. Um, it was like worldwide design and actually all of it was seen as good because it was focused on the impact on the audience. So for me, that like shift of, let's say, much more um Eurocentric design to actually global design is a really positive thing. It's creating a much more inclusive um design industry when it comes to, let's say, climate. I think we're stepping in the right direction because we're at least recognizing, you know, good design quote, unquote with things like the white pencil wards.
Speaker 4:Um, I know other wards have things like the sustainability category, but what I would love for us to start doing is particularly my sustainability. Is that not just being a category? It's almost embedded in all of the judging, because, particularly in the world we're living in, it can't be just seen as a lovely add-on, but oh look, they've just used I don't know recycled plastic. Isn't that fantastic actually. It needs to be like in the world we're in just actually part and parcel of our culture. So I think that's where we need to go, um.
Speaker 4:But I do know there needs to be a big mindset shift because we're still thinking like um, if we're still thinking the old system, and that's really hard for people to kind of step forward, and I know I'd be interested in your thoughts about this. But when I was at um design the Planet Festival, there was still the thinking that we can design within the current capitalist system as it is, which is, you know, produce sell, produce sell, and I think maybe we might be able to circle it back a bit, but you know, some of it might still end up in landfill. But we can still do an amazing right and create loads and loads and loads of um and profit. But I keep saying to people like this exponential growth has to come through taking something and at that moment.
Speaker 3:Well, don't you think, sana? I mean because on that and and thank you for questioning capitalism at this point in the podcast, because usually that's damla's job- I really okay, really Okay, I'm taking your role.
Speaker 4:I'm so sorry.
Speaker 3:I'm happy to pass the torch, but we do. We sit in such an interesting space as people who essentially work within a commercial creative genre. That's our profession. We choose to focus that on causes. But more broadly, you know, commercial design is entirely reliant on a very, very wasteful capitalist system that still thinks you can achieve infinite growth on a finite planet. So it's so interesting to interrogate that very question that you've just exposed there, because our wider profession not what the three of us do, but our wide profession is inherently unsustainable it is and it's a it's a hard question.
Speaker 4:And it's a hard question because we know what it really means and I don't, and whether that you know that's a big discussion about changing what we do. Um, I don't know what the solution is, but at least we're trying to start beginning having the conversation. I mean that is progress. But I do think we need to start asking ourselves around. Like what we are producing in our campaigns, like? So, for example, in political campaigns I worked on, I started asking candidates like do we need to print this much? Do we need to create new t-shirts every year? Can we stop thinking about like our website? And is it like eco-friendly? And again, it's not perfect, but at least it's stepping in the right direction of thinking about how much we're producing and what can be sustainable.
Speaker 4:So, for example, one campaign I worked on went from you know, let's print new batches of T-shirts to actually let's ask volunteers to bring old T-shirts in. We'll just screen print onto those instead. Or pin like fabric onto existing T-shirts, which I know is not as sexy as something which is so beautifully branded and made. But it was just also thinking a bit about like the production. So it's like these. I know they're small, but I think there's still wins in the right direction and I think, as long as we keep challenging ourselves and our practices and stepping that direction, I think that's something. I think my problem is is some practices are still working with really bad companies, um, and it's like there's no way around it. And again, I understand like there's different levels of evil and even with myself I question that but there are some which are just like straightforward and I'm like there's no, there's no much questioning. No, no, please. Sorry, I feel like I've chatted for a long time now.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, no no, just I was going to say that I think the verdict is not in yet. And it's definitely not in yet for me, because one morning I get up and I say, oh, we're making progress, and this is now mainstream, we're talking sustainability, that is great, and so on. And the next morning I wake up and I see the outcomes from COP, or I read something, or I just remember what Steve said, that our profession is inherently unsustainable. And I start thinking, oh God, sustainability can't be sustained. We have to dramatically change everything. And so, going back and forth, but not decided yet. But one thing is for sure that we have limited time. So I have to get to the other question, which is, with all these things in your mind, what is there in your studio right now? What is the next big thing? What are you working on?
Speaker 4:so I am gonna be cheeky and break the rule. I just quickly step back. I'm so sorry. I know I'm a rebel was a cause. What can I say? I want us to start switching the language from sustainability to future proofing. I feel like that's going to really help us because at the moment we think sustainability and we think about all the ways of being greenwashed. Minute we say future proofing, we are really asking fundamental, bigger questions of ourselves. So that's kind of my two cents there.
Speaker 3:Good challenge, good challenge there.
Speaker 4:Going forward to your question about what's in my studio, so I've just started working on a really powerful and exciting project around workers' rights. So I can't say too much about it, unfortunately, but working with some unions to basically make, basically challenge some current laws on workers' rights which aren't actually helping people and actually leading to a lot of exploitation. So hopefully in January, when it goes to Parliament, I can share a little bit more then. So maybe you need to have me back, but that's kind of what I'm working at the moment. Sorry, it's a little bit under the guise.
Speaker 4:No, I think it's kind of what I can just say. But it's really been good because today I've been reading through like piles and piles of like policy papers to try and understand it a bit more and then think about, about, okay, what's that kind of nugget because it's so complicated which I hopefully get the public on board and get us to change our way of thinking around this piece of legislation so we can improve it for all workers. Um, so that's kind of where I'm on at the moment well, I think on that as well.
Speaker 3:Sana I am damla will have to send you an example from Mirrors portfolio, because they did a incredibly powerful workers' rights campaign a few years ago. It was workers in the denim and jeans industry, wasn't it, damla, as I recall?
Speaker 2:Yes, it was about you know that process to make denims lighter in colour and that really damages the lungs of the workers. So we were working with the syndicates and unions and everything, so it really helped and that's one of the most proudful works we have ever done, I think yeah, it's amazing piece of work.
Speaker 3:So, almost final question, sana um and this is a very hard, this one um can you tell us what your perfect brief would look like? If you've not done it already, what would you love to be able to tackle as a creative brief?
Speaker 4:I find that such a hard question because I'm so greedy and I have so many, so many briefs I want to work on. Um, yeah, I have so many. So I think at this moment I probably would say a brief which brings together, let's say, my two passion, which is like art and politics. Um, because I haven't done a lot in the political space, but whether it's around some kind of festival or a museum exhibition, I would love that, just so I can push my creativity a little bit more, but it's also singing to like the things I absolutely love. Um, so that's kind of wow and I sashay that at the moment promise you we will find that kind of brief for you.
Speaker 2:Steve notes to the agenda and the future projects to be done.
Speaker 3:Okay, got it.
Speaker 2:Our final question comes, and we love this question and I'm so curious what you're going to say. Our network is ironically called Do Not Smile, because we need to make sustainability a subject that brings happiness into the world. So what object, place or person always makes you smile?
Speaker 4:Oh, I love that question. Oh, who make? What makes me smile? Okay, I think at the moment, walking outside and seeing the sunshine and being able to walk around the park I have no buy honestly brings me so much peace and joy. Um, it's something about being around nature and the trees which is just like priceless. It's honestly just yeah. I think you can have all the stress in the world. You know all the client problems and emails and all those things happening, but the minute you step out and that sun's beaming on you, you hear the birds singing, you hear the rustle of the leaves. It's so tranquil and magical.
Speaker 3:So at the moment, it's bringing me a lot of joy, especially in these winter months oh see, that is perfect and well, if you the way you described that as well, son, we were all there. We were in the woods with you with me walking along.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the gorgeous golden autumnal leaves and the dappled sunlight that was coming through them, oh anyway. So we mustn't. We must move on there. So we're out of time now, but, thank you, soled sunlight that was coming through them, oh anyway. So we must move on there. So we're out of time now. But thank you so much, son. That was amazing, and I am so pleased to have somebody else other than Damla questioning capitalism on the podcast. It's about time we're going to have to think about the inherent unsustainability of what we do. So, damla, over to you. Do you want to wrap this up?
Speaker 3:So thanks to everyone who has listened to our good guys podcast, brought to you by the do not smile network of agencies and make sure you listen to future episodes where we'll be talking to more amazing people like sana about how we can work together to create a more sustainable future together. See you, damla, see you Sana.
Speaker 4:Bye, thank you, bye.
Speaker 1:Good Geist, a podcast series on sustainability Hosted by Damla Özler and Steve Connor, brought to you by the DNS Network.
