GoodGeist
A podcast on sustainability, hosted by Damla Özlüer and Steve Connor, brought to you by the DNS Network. Looking at sustainability issues, communications, and featuring global guests from a wide variety of sectors such as business, NGOs and government.
GoodGeist
Acting Together for a Better World, with Lorenzo Pavone
Join us for a great chat with Lorenzo Pavone from the OECD Development Centre as we explore the critical issues of global sustainability and the green transition. Lorenzo brings a wealth of experience and shares his insights on the power of multilateral collaboration in sustainable development. We'll unpack the unique role of the OECD's Development Centre in fostering international dialogue and partnerships to meet shared global challenges.
And Lorenzo emphasises that development is a collective effort, not just financial transactions from richer to poorer nations. Against the backdrop of COP29, we examine the pressing need for a just and green economic transition, highlighting the pivotal role of green finance in promoting environmental resilience and sustainability and the crucial role of the private sector.
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Good Geist, a podcast series on sustainability hosted by Damla Özler and Steve Connor, brought to you by the DNS Network.
Speaker 2:Hello, hello everyone, you are listening to Good Guys, the message on sustainability which is brought to you by the DNS Network, the global network of agencies dedicated to making the world a better place. This is Damla from Mira Agency, istanbul, and.
Speaker 3:This is Steve from Creative Concern in Manchester. This podcast series explores global sustainability issues, how they're communicated and what creativity can do to make positive change happen.
Speaker 2:So in this episode we're going to talk to Lorenzo Pavone, the Deputy Head of the Networks, partnerships and Gender Division at the OECD Development Centre development center, he oversees the division's policy dialogue with non-state actors through two networks of multinational companies emerging markets network and foundations network of foundations working for development and thematic work on development, communication and gender.
Speaker 3:that's a long, long job, a big job that lorenzo has, and before that, lorenzo, you were a policy analyst and project coordinator, um at the oacd, worked on policy reforms in the field of private sector development in eastern europe, south caucasia, central asia, and before that you were an senior consultant in economic development, foreign direct investment, forco Global, an international consulting firm. So what a resume, I have to say. Lorenzo, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast.
Speaker 4:Thank you for having me with you. It's a pleasure to be with you today and talk to you.
Speaker 2:It's great to have you with us today, lorenzo, today, and talk to you. It's great to have you with us today, lorenzo, but before we begin, I would like to make an official statement for our listeners. Lorenzo today, with this huge and brilliant story, is with us in his own capacity. His views are not especially the official news of the OECD, so that we made this clear. You are here with your own news, lorenzo. We always like to start with our guests' own journey. So you have this amazing history in economics. How did you decide to put yourself in the way of sustainable development?
Speaker 4:Thanks a lot for having me again with you. It's a long CV but I would say in general it's been an interesting journey. Throughout my career, I've been always a strong supporter of multilateral collaboration to solve global problems together. I find the OECD to be a very good advocate for international cooperation. I find the OECD to be a very good advocate for international cooperation, which is, I think, particularly important when we want to address issues like sustainable development. I also like the idea of partnerships which is in my title, particularly with the private sector, achieve my expectations in terms of my contributions but at the same time, build on my background.
Speaker 3:So that's how I ended up in my position now. It sounds like the perfect job, Lorenzo. So tell me one thing I mean in the words that are used by the Development Centre, that you're a champion of development center. That you're a champion of, you bring together policymakers from countries of all regions and income levels to collaborate on an equal footing, to build mutual understandings very much that multilateral thing that you're talking about there towards shared and green development. So, on that shared development path, explain that for us a little bit. What does that entail, Lorenzo?
Speaker 4:Yeah, first of all, let me tell you something about the development center, which is a special body of the OECD.
Speaker 4:Instead of having 38 member countries, we have 54, because we have a number of countries from Latin America, from Asia and from Africa. They're not part of the OECD, but are willing to and they're part of the Development Center as full members as much as Italy, france, for example to really share and discuss together common challenges. So your question was about the shared parts. The shared part entails that, say, for some time now, it's not been possible to understand development only if we talk about the flows of money from north to south or from rich countries to poor countries. Rather, we need to think about development in a framework in which countries are part of an interconnected world and work together to find global solutions to share the challenges, nor the sort alike. For example, if you take climate change, you can have the best policy, but if your neighbors pollute, then it becomes a problem for you too. So that's why the importance of together working to find a solution to problems that we all share.
Speaker 2:So let's go to the greener part of this question. Actually, we are in the midst of COP29, as you know and the headline in the team is green finance. What is, for you, the path for a just and green transition of the economy?
Speaker 4:Well, the global impacts of all the various current crises have been a reminder of the weak resilience to shocks of our economic systems, particularly in developing countries Fragile social protection systems, low productivity, weak institutions and sometimes an environmentally unsustainable development model, which is very important. So a green and just transition could actually help overcome these social and economic challenges, could help strengthen resilience but, at the same time, improve people's well-being. We're all highly exposed to the effect of climate change, so policies should therefore promote environmental sustainability, decarbonisation, resilience, together with growth and economic development. That's why it has to be green and just transition.
Speaker 3:So let's go. We've warmed up. Damla and I have to share with listeners as well. And I'm sorry about this, lorenzo, but because we are communicators, I have to share with listeners as well. And I'm sorry about this, lorenzo, but because we are communicators, I have to share with listeners that on your backdrop, you have the best strapline for.
Speaker 4:OECD.
Speaker 3:There's better policies for better lives, and I love that. I'd like us to go a little bit deeper into where we are currently globally. Dan was mentioned COP 29, but there's a lot as well as green finance and loss and damage funds and stuff like that. There is a conversation going on about whether there is currently a global risk of the green transition agenda slowing down in some way or becoming less of a sort of prevalent discussion. So how do you think, with the partners that you work in and multi-stakeholder way, we can stay on course for sustainable development that we care so passionately about?
Speaker 4:Yes, steve, this is a very good question. Unfortunately, the world is off track to achieve the SDGs and the Paris Agreement, so putting the world on track will require important additional investments. Global economy in recent years, so, for example, the cost of borrowing has increased. More and more countries now are using their limited resources to repay the cost of debt instead of investing them. So, in this context, partnerships with non-state actors can help not only mobilize additional resources not finance but also innovate and ensure that you need less money actually to solve the same problem because you innovate and find new solutions to old problems. So, increasingly, non-state actors are also collaborating on climate action. So we see, data shows that between 2013 and 2020, for example, businesses accounted for 74% of all the renewable energy investments worldwide, and then 40 of the largest international philanthropic donors give a total of something like $1.4 billion a year to support climate adaptation and mitigation. So, as you can see that the partnerships with this actor is very important to remain on course for the green transition.
Speaker 2:Well, we're talking of the economy and how we can shift it, but also, I'm thinking when we look at the world at the moment, in the context we are in, we see that more and more protective economic measures come in and the countries just turn inside, not outside, and collaborate more. So, with this shift in the attitude of the general public and also the, of course, politics following this public, how can we make this work? I mean, how does this, for you, affect the global vision to build competitive and resilient economies and leaving no one behind, because this is a more broader and inclusive attitude rather than being protective.
Speaker 4:Yeah, indeed, there are persisting geopolitical and trade tensions today and trade tensions today. However, we actually noticed in our latest economic outlook, the global economy is starting to turn the corner, with declining inflation and robust trade growth. So let's see where it goes. We are a great advocate for cooperation that's out of question and, for example, you just mentioned before the development center's motto is strong, shared and green development that we can do together. So we think that cooperation is the best way to ensure the transition doesn't leave anyone behind, and among the various topics that we can talk about leaving anyone behind, there is the issue of informality.
Speaker 4:Today, nearly 2 billion workers, which is some of 60% of the world's working population today, and 9 in 10 workers in low-income countries, hold informal employment. So formal workers lack social protections, enjoy fewer rights, they often lack access to health care, education and training. In many cases, their families live in precarious situations, and the climate crisis and transition to green energy will only intensify these problems they face. So what can we do? We need to reevaluate the social contract. So how citizens, governments, workers and businesses set together goals and distribute resources to ensure that no one is left behind. And as we do that, we also have to consider the extent to which the social contract is fair to informal workers and operate to make sure that more formal jobs are created and more opportunities are generated for people to have more, I would say security in their life.
Speaker 3:So, lorenzo, I'm going to pick up on something you said a moment ago, so this isn't the question I thought I was going to ask, actually, because I want to pick up on something you said a moment ago which was really interesting, which is you talked about resilience quite a bit, and you talked about how one of the partners that's involved in achieving sustainable development is the private sector. Yeah, and you talked about private sector investment in green energy. How, how do you feel we are faring? Because I know to get that investment, people need a policy environment that is secure and reliable, and I'm sure that's a huge part of OECD's work, isn't it Just ensuring that we have a policy environment? So are we making progress on that and providing that stable policy environment for private sector investment to come in?
Speaker 4:It is something that we discussed a lot, particularly when we are working in my network of companies, the managing markets network.
Speaker 4:One of the main questions is what policies can help companies invest more in key sectors of the economy that can be strategic to support an inclusive growth, Particularly when we are talking about the sustainable development accompanying the digital transition and making sure that the digital transition doesn't create a more digital divide. So you have some parts of the countries with all broadband access and others that can't even connect to low internet, and the point of a stable framework for investment is very important. Framework for investment is very important. Having a predictable framework helps companies, particularly those that make investment in infrastructure, that have a high upfront cost and then the revenues are scattered, maybe over 20 years, with concessions to ensure that their investment is protected. Doing that helps companies invest, helps generate more jobs formal and creates the conditions for more dialogue between companies and governments on things that they can do together. So it's a win-win situation and we're trying to promote this dialogue in our event by inviting governments and always an advocate for public-private dialogue and then collaboration.
Speaker 2:Well, what I hear the most is collaboration and different levels of action to ensure that we will get a just transition and leave no one behind. So about the SDGs they gave us a pretty good framework there, with the gender equality on one hand, the cities on the other, the partnerships and so on, and pretty much everyone in sustainable development circles is using that framework to communicate what we need to do. But the thing you said in the beginning of the podcast we have fallen really behind on those global goals. So I know that we had a pandemic, I know that we had lots of things in the world that we hadn't had before, but still, how do you think did this happen? What could we have done more?
Speaker 4:Well, we could have done the same conversations one or two years before the Millennium Development Goals, which was the predecessors of the Sustainable Development Goals. These goals are very ambitious. We just released a report a few days ago about progress in national climate policy efforts to achieve the 2030 targets and the 2050 net zero targets, and we are falling behind in most of them. I would say more commitment will be important, but already the fact that there is a commitment to progress towards a certain objective is already always a call to action. Towards a certain objective is already always a call to action, a continuous call to action. So, even if we don't meet the target, there is a commitment to work towards them, which is already, I would say, a positive consequence of these goals. Then we can definitely do more to uh to achieve them, um, and if we don't, at least that will be uh on the right track well, it's as ever.
Speaker 3:We're back to the incredible balancing act between optimism and realism. Yeah, and it's a debate that we have all the time and I was while you're talking there, lorenzo. I was thinking about our home city of Manchester, and we are currently reviewing our major environmental plan for the city, and that debate is happening right now about OK, we're kind of off track on our carbon budget. We have a science based target, but do we stay on track or do we set a goal that's achievable, but then that seems to fall so far short of what we need. And that made me think about cities and nations and international collaboration, and I just wonder what your thoughts are about those different levels of collaboration and policy environment in sustainable development, because you must encounter, for example, quite a lot of city-based dialogues around how a city is transitioning, and they're really interesting dynamics, aren't they? Between cities and nations and policy frameworks.
Speaker 4:Yeah, absolutely. One of the things that we discuss a lot is the relationship, for example, between national government and some national administration and cities and how they collaborate or they sometimes don't collaborate together towards a common objective. So this is an important element of good public governance to have all the various level of the public administration working together towards a common objectives. And there are a number of challenges related sometimes also to skills, related to funding and the structure of some of these organizations. But I would say there are also some positive trends. For example, for those who have been able to introduce more digital technologies and digital services, they have become closer to the citizens, providing easier access to services. To introduce more digital technologies and digital services, they became closer to the citizens, providing easier access to services. So the performance, obviously, and the effectiveness of cities and some national administrations is very important because those are the closer organizations to the citizens.
Speaker 2:Well, your current focus is on gender and development. Do you see gender equality as a powerful lever for strong, green and inclusive economy development? I mean, this is a rhetorical question. I know that you do.
Speaker 4:So I would just ask the second part why?
Speaker 4:Yeah, well, let me tell you why it's important and no question, maybe what I can tell you is that we noticed that with all the crises that we mentioned on COVID, climate change and others, we actually noticed reversing some of the gains in gender equality. So, and at the heart of our failure, I would say, there are what we call the discriminatory social institutions, which are the formal, informal laws and social norms and practices that determine what women and men can do and cannot do. So we released, in 2023, the fifth edition of what we call the Social Institutional Gender Index, the CE. It's an index that shows what countries stand in terms of these discriminatory social institutions, and what I can tell you, for example, is worldwide, 40% of women and girls live in countries with high or very high levels of discriminatory social institutions, at least according to our analysis, and discriminations begin at the very early stage of life, in everything from education, career choices to sexual and reproductive health and rights. So, to be more concrete, for example, in 2022, we saw that more than one in three people worldwide believe that it is a problem when a woman earns more than her husband, and then 45% of the population still thinks that when jobs are not available or scarce. Men should have more rights to work than women. Another interesting point is that at the current pace, it will take, at least according to estimations, at least 30 years to achieve gender equality in politics.
Speaker 4:But if you look more into climate change, you know we say that we also think that there is a need to look at the nexus between gender and climate crisis, because we know that women are the most affected by the climate crisis.
Speaker 4:So the effects of climate change, for example, on food security, on access to water and other resources, affects more women than men.
Speaker 4:One example usually is women, particularly in rural areas, who walk every day to collect water for their households, and if there is less water, that means they have to walk more and go far. Women and girls also are much more likely to die than men during natural disasters, not just because they are weaker, if you want, from a body perspective, also because there is evidence that there is an evacuation. There are more limitations for women than men in mobility during climate disasters. Another aspect is that for the recovery, you know, women don't have the ability to recover as fast as men from climate change effects, let's say, in the rural areas, because they often lack collateral to obtain loans to rebuild, maybe, their houses or the field you know where they're producing agricultural products. So, all in all, to say that gender remains very high in the agenda and we still have a lot of work to do, and that there is an important nexus also with sustainable development and climate change.
Speaker 3:Yeah, fascinating, I mean. The other important thing, going back to our earlier conversation, lorenzo is that gender equality results in better economic outcomes as well, doesn't it?
Speaker 4:Absolutely, yeah, exactly. Discrimination in recruitment increases the possibility to have more women, more brain, more diversity in the solutions, the managerial solutions to problems, or in politics the same thing. So there is definitely a missed opportunity because some half of the brains are not put at work as they should to contribute to the other half Exactly.
Speaker 3:And I will also mark down this podcast Lorenzo is the time that Damla asked whether gender equality was important or not.
Speaker 2:That's a miscommunication, come on.
Speaker 3:I think now on Damla, I want you to only ask rhetorical questions like that, anyway. So the other question I had to answer was a slightly philosophical one and just for a moment before we start the last few questions, which is, with your kind of long perspective and esteemed career in development, where are we, where are we at globally on that development journey? How do you see the conversation around development evolving in the next few years?
Speaker 4:I think we are in a moment of transition If you look at where we were 10 years ago, how different we are today, and then look at how different we were 20 years ago. So concepts like green and just transition, digital transformation, sustainability are becoming increasingly important, much more than they used to be. There is, though, an important level, say, of uncertainty now geopolitical uncertainty, polarization of societies and sometimes also lack of trust in public institutions that, I think, are generated mainly by the perception of social and economic inequalities. So this is, I think, a moment of transition, with opportunities and a lot of challenges that are partially related to inequalities in societies.
Speaker 2:Well, soon, very, very soon, COP 29 will be over, with all its outcomes, hopes, frustrations, arguments, everything. It will be over. What do you think needs to be done to accelerate climate action afterwards?
Speaker 4:Well, again, I already mentioned that we need to work all together towards this common objective. That's the main important aspect. That is to be governments. It has to be national organizations in society, private sector. We also need the paradigm shift, because I always think about emerging regions, for example, and developing countries, not just as climate affected areas, but also as potential green powerhouses and look at them as a place for opportunities.
Speaker 4:We just organized last week a webinar to discuss the private sector's role in accelerating green technologies and solutions in emerging and developing economies and what policies can help increase their contribution to the green transition. So some of the outcomes are related to the fact that you know we need to discuss how the private sector can accompany what we call a behavioral change. So working together to understand better how the private sector can also be an actor and change and support a behavioral change for the society, the importance of the decarbonization of industries, the importance of not leaving anyone behind and also the importance of leveraging public-private partnerships to make sure that all actors are included in these discussions moving forward towards the achievement of the climate objective. Otherwise, we will not be able to achieve that.
Speaker 3:Well, lorenzo, you've mentioned behaviour change, and I'm going to try not to extend our podcast by another 15 minutes while we get into behaviour change, because I would love to talk about that, but instead I'm going to screech to a halt on my electric scooter and ask you a final question, which is our network is ironically called Do Not Smile, because we need, we know that we need to make sustainability a subject that brings happiness into the world. So our question is what object, place or person always makes you smile?
Speaker 4:well thinking about that. I think all the parks, green places where I bring my daughter to play and have fun together wow, that was beautiful.
Speaker 2:That just painted a picture for me a Very, very beautiful picture.
Speaker 3:I can't think of anything more lovely. Okay, Damla, wrap us up.
Speaker 2:So thanks to everyone who has listened to our Good Guys podcast, brought to you by the Do Not Smile network of agencies.
Speaker 3:And make sure you listen to future episodes where we'll be talking to more amazing people like Lorenzo about how we can work together to make a more sustainable future happen. So see you, damla, see you, lorenzo, about how we can work together to make a more sustainable future happen.
Speaker 4:So see you Damla, See you Lorenzo, See you, Thank you. Bye Steve, Bye Damla.
Speaker 1:Good Geist, a podcast series on sustainability Hosted by Damla Özler and Steve Connor, brought to you by the DNS Network.
