GoodGeist
A podcast on sustainability, hosted by Damla Özlüer and Steve Connor, brought to you by the DNS Network. Looking at sustainability issues, communications, and featuring global guests from a wide variety of sectors such as business, NGOs and government.
GoodGeist
The Climate Business, with Gudrun Cartwright
In this episode we follow the journey of Gudrun Cartwright, the Climate Action Director for Business in the Community, as she shares her unique path and insights. We explore how her experiences in the NHS motivated her shift to environmentalism and then joining the mission of Business in the Community, a responsible business network in the UK that aims to create a fairer and greener world.
We talk about the increasing recognition among CEOs that climate action is a major issue, with 85% identifying it as a top concern and about corporations feeling the heat from market pressures and fears of greenwashing. We also talk about the role of Gen Z in driving purpose-driven work and the intricate challenges faced by global businesses, plus the anticipated prominence of climate finance at the upcoming COP and the critical need to "follow the money" for effective climate action.
Follow GoodGeist for more episodes on sustainability, communications and how creativity can help make the world a better place.
Good Geist, a podcast series on sustainability hosted by Damla Özler and Steve Connor, brought to you by the DNS Network.
Speaker 2:Hello, hello everyone, you are listening to Good Guys, the message on sustainability which is brought to you by the DNS Network, the global network of agencies dedicated to making the world a better place. This is Damla from Rina Agency, istanbul, and.
Speaker 3:This is Steve from Creative Concern in Manchester. This podcast series explores global sustainability issues, how they're communicated and what creativity can do to make positive change happen.
Speaker 2:So in this episode we're going to talk to Gudrun Cartwright, who is Climate Action Director for Business in the Community, where she leads efforts to help business transition to a net zero carbon economy. She focuses on developing collaborative projects to create resilient systems that benefit both people and the environment.
Speaker 3:With an MSc in environmental management her experience I'm sorry Gudrun expands lots of sectors, including the NHS, with a focus on innovation and sustainability and a quick, because you used to be a nurse back in the day good room can I did and a quick explainer, though, on business and community. You can do an explainer in a minute, but for those who aren't in the uk, it's a business-led charity that promotes uh responsible business practices, helps companies to create positive and social and environmental impact. So, gudrun, thank you for talking to Damla and myself.
Speaker 4:You are most welcome. Thank you very much for inviting me to be part of the podcast.
Speaker 3:Brilliant. So we always like to kick off with a bit of backstory. So you, because you've not always been a full-time environmentalist, goodrun, um. So what's your personal journey and what led you to becoming climate action director of business in the community?
Speaker 4:so um. So I would say that I've had a fairly circuitous route to get here. I started off um, left school, didn't go to university, got a job as an office junior and kind of worked my way into HR. I did that probably for about eight or so years, not about developing and looking after people so much as, um, you know, making people do what the company wanted them to do. Um, not saying that every hr place is like that, um, but um and so I yeah.
Speaker 4:So I, I, I decided that I would um go and do something. I'd you know as a child I'd wanted to be a nurse. So I really wanted to do something. I'd you know as a child I'd wanted to be a nurse. So I really wanted to do something really positive, making a difference for people. So I went off and trained as a nurse and spent a few years working as a nurse, did some time in A&E and acute medicine, where I got really interested in palliative care.
Speaker 4:Um and I I'd been an activist environmental and social activist for that time and I I had um a real realization while I was working in the NHS that actually, if we don't address both our relationship with um death and that things must die, but also that we are part of bigger systems, then anything we could do to create social benefit would all fall apart. Uh, so then my husband moved, his work moved to Manchester and so I had to leave my job anyway and I was really lucky to get a place, funded, place on a master's program, manchester Metropolitan University, did that for a year, did my thesis on the corporate response to climate change. Um, and then I got a job at business in the community as a climate change campaign manager for the northwest of England, and that has led me over the last 16 years to be where I am doing what I do today.
Speaker 2:Oh, my god, gudrun Valar Morghulis, that's what I just heard in my head when you said we have to think about our relationship with death and everything must die, but also this story about being fed up with everything and then deciding to do some good. Steve, does it sound familiar? It's kind of all of our story. I hope that story.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I hope that will just expand and expand. But before going into that, as you know, we are a very internationalist podcast Could you do a quick explainer for us on business in the community and what it aims to achieve? Yeah, of course.
Speaker 4:So we are the largest responsible business network in the UK and we have lots of global businesses that are in membership. But our um and we're the king's responsible business network, so the the king of england has been um very supportive of us. He's our royal founding patron for the last 40 years and so we have um. Our ambition really is to create a fairer and greener world led by fairer and greener businesses, and we work with companies to both help them with their own responsible business strategy around issues from diversity and inclusion through to um you know, nature, stewardship and um everything in between and we also help galvanize businesses to do practical things that make a difference for um the communities that they work with, whether that's their employees or their suppliers or the communities around where they work.
Speaker 3:So that's essentially good room um, just to jump straight into the big, the biggie, brace yourself, okay. Um. So climate act. What I wanted to get straight into is climate action in the boardroom, um, which is where your head's partly been out for ages and that you know really, really well. So, in the sort of C-suite environment, to use the Hackney jargon, how do you make climate action the issue that's really central to people and as big a ticket as shareholder value or attracting talent? How do you make climate action a boardroom issue?
Speaker 4:Yeah, so I would argue that climate action is a boardroom issue at the moment. So we've just done some research and we produced a state of the nation report in the summer which was based on interviews with chief execs and a survey from chief execs from some of the biggest companies that we work with, and climate was the biggest kind of concern for those people. 85% of people, I think, had put it in their top three issues that they're working on. So that was, you know, by far and away the biggest issue, and then the biggest emerging issue that they were seeing was nature and nature stewardship. So there's a real acknowledgement and knowledge understanding that this is a big issue.
Speaker 4:What people are finding challenging is knowing exactly what to do to turn that um, the commitment, into progress to get there. Because I think the the real head scratcher is and I take this back to science-based targets and the kind of analysis that it's 90 carbon reduction before you do any I'm going to say offsetting they wouldn't use that word but before you invest in carbon removals and it's virtually impossible to imagine what any business today, how any business, is going to get from where it is today to a 90% reduction doing what it does today. So I think this is the challenge that everybody's facing now, but I would say it's definitely on the agenda in the boardroom.
Speaker 2:So then you mentioned commitment, but I have actually two questions, but they just go to the same path, so I'm going to ask both of them in one sentence, if I can. Let me try it. We do see commitment actually, but we do. We have enough systems to check if that commitment turns into actions and turn into results, and are there any consequences? If they are not, I mean the commitment is just a PR or it's not. The action is not enough. We don't have any systems backing that up or controlling or making things happen. We just have few examples there and there we see if the NGOs or other public bodies catch it, but still there isn't, I feel, a solid background here that will support this commitment with actions and with this. Anecdotally, there are some who have suggested that grander aims on climate and ESG are currently taking a bit of a backseat to basic corporate compliance. Is that a fair assessment, do you think?
Speaker 4:I mean, I think there is evidence that, you know, the market is driving some companies that have potentially, you know, been leaders in the past to be more cautious in what they're doing. I think, alongside of that, there are issues around, you know, green hushing, with all of the legislation coming out around green washing, and companies and business leaders are more nervous about saying something that they even actually, you know, when we're talking to businesses, when they feel that they can fairly robustly defend what they're saying, the commitment is always the easy part, isn't it? You know? And there's some. There was some research a few years ago that I cannot remember where it came from, but that said, that showed that, whether it's, you know, going to a weight loss weekly class or whatever, it is making the commitment, if you get the plaudits for making the commitment, you get the same psychological buzz as you do from getting the plaudits for actually having achieved it. So you get the feel-good feeling without having to really do the thing, um, so so there's this bit where we're at in the um. Commitments have been made. I think a lot of the low-hanging fruit has been had, the easy stuff's been done, um, and it's now getting into the point of what is the um, the change that needs to happen.
Speaker 4:And if you are, you know, if you're a manufacturer of a certain widget or you're a retailer of a certain type of product, what does that? What does that actually mean for you? To get there and I think it's back to that same point as in actually some, some organizations may need to fundamentally redesign what they do to keep being in existence. Um, you know, you can't, you simply cannot cut your carbon emissions by 90. We cannot cut our carbon emissions by 90 without fundamentally changing a lot of things. So there's lots of things that businesses can do, but there's a lot of things that businesses can't do on their own, which is where the policy piece comes in, which is where the collaboration comes in and the um, the challenges for global businesses are often around the um, the different requirements. So you know, if you're a us headquartered business, then you're kind of you're required to do less than if you're a? U a european headquartered business like that. You know, the regulatory framework is not as demanding there. That may change um, but at the moment it isn't. So it's all of these different things that come into play and one of the drivers I think that is increasingly important is around employees and talent.
Speaker 4:So, as you find, particularly with um, you know gen z coming into the workplace and wanting to be purpose-driven. I remember, um a quote from clover hogan, at force of nature, um, who said don't ask me which of your crappy careers I want. Tell me the kind of problems you need you know. Tell me how I can be part of solving global problems. I want to work on climate, I want to work on social justice. Enable me to do that and that's what she's hearing from. You know her peers of young people who are suffering from climate anxiety. So it's a complex landscape and I think, think the other thing that really came out of the State of the Nation report for us was that it's so complex and so interrelated that you know where do you start, and I often have that. You know that whack-a-mole game that you used to get in the fairground, where you know you pop one mole on the head over here not particularly animal friendly as a game but and another one just not real moles.
Speaker 3:They're not real moles, thank you. Not real moles, it's all right you can? You can sleep soundly tonight. They're not real. Yeah, good, good.
Speaker 4:But it is that you, but it is that you know. It is that complex systemic challenges.
Speaker 3:I know it is complex, gudrun, but I think this is usually the point in the podcast where Damla steps in and questions global international capitalism, but this time I'm going to do it.
Speaker 2:Why are you not?
Speaker 3:I know, I'm stealing your. I'm stealing your best line, pamela, but I think it's really interesting, isn't it? Because I think we are now hitting the point in corporate climate action where the basic fundamentals of infinite growth and shareholder value being delivered year on year, increased market share being delivered year on year on year and the reality of what we need to do to transition to a globally decarbonized economy are starting to really jar up against each other. Because essentially and this is why I want to turn to the next cop and your thoughts on it if we're, we are now at the point where you really do need to follow the money, and it was really easy for a big brand 10 years ago to say we're on our climate journey to zero, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 3:Now everybody's looking at the money, they're following the money, they're following the market, they're figuring out how you finance all this stuff, and it is getting more complex and it is getting more difficult, and climate finance, in particular, is going to be one of the focuses on at the cop, isn't it? It's going to be one of the big themes. So I wanted to to get your take on fine climate finance. What's going to be discussed at the cop and what bitc's take on it is?
Speaker 4:so, in all honesty, as with every cop, I think it's a bit difficult to know what they're going to talk about at this date. You know, for those of us who do events and comms and stuff, that's a real freak out moment that we're sort of, you know, less than three months away and we don't have a clear, really a really clear sense of the details, really clear sense of the um. The details, I think what's going to be discussed at the cop is going to be around, you know, mobilizing the private sector finance. We're going to be coming back to loss and damage fund again. We're going to be coming back to the um, the responsibility of of rich nations to support, you know, poor nations with their transition and with adaptation. I think that's so.
Speaker 4:I think the thing about copies is a very um, like it's a nation focused thing.
Speaker 4:Um, so, but there is a real, a real move around um mobilizing private finance, and you know the new, newly elected uk government's got a big focus on um mobilizing, yeah, mobilizing climate finance, uh sorry, private finance to tackle big societal challenges, like you know, the green um, gb, energy and the wealth fund, which is is looking like it's going to be quite climate focused.
Speaker 4:So so that's kind of where I think things are going. Um, and one of the things that we've we're working on a business in the Community is a programme around setting up this community climate fund, which is about how do you create some of those innovative financing mechanisms here in the UK to support communities, test and scale different types of projects that make a difference and then bring together the public, the private and the philanthropic capital so that it all adds up and you can say, right, this can be scaled and it will create these social, environmental and economic benefits. That's, I think, where we need to get to. Otherwise, we end up in this unvirtuous circle of we need to fix the economy, then we'll look at social problems, then we'll look at environmental problems and and now we have to do them all together and just one.
Speaker 3:I'm just down the one quick one while I'm I'm staying on on the deconstructing capitalism thread for a minute. But the other one I wanted to get your take on Gudrun was the whole discussion on green finance and nature recovery, Because I feel like and I don't wish to be cynical, but I feel like we've been talking about it now for a good few years, about finding innovative financial mechanisms to support nature recovery, and nobody's cracked it yet. They still. It's still partly philanthropic, it's still partly, you know, biodiversity in that game. What do you think we're going to get to? A point where we can actually find a market mechanism that helps nature recovery?
Speaker 4:I think it's really difficult. I mean, we did a big, we were part of a big european funded project in greater manchester that was looking at exactly this as an issue. So it is really difficult because it is hard to find who is actually paying at enough of a scale to make them invest in something to restore nature and reduce those costs that you know it's. It's so diffuse, the impacts are so diffuse, um, so I I think it's. I think it's hard.
Speaker 4:I think what you need to do is do a joined up approach so you know if you can fund the, if you can do projects that are going to save money around energy, around resource use, and you use some of the savings that you make from that to invest in the nature recovery and you can show that I think that has the potential to work.
Speaker 4:Ensuring carbon offsetting can do that, depending on where you are. But then you've got know the just transition elements around If you take that money away from. You know the stoves you were funding in Africa that was stopping people from cutting down trees, and you know creating cleaner air and all of the good things that that money was helping what happens there. So I think there's again, I think you can do it, but it's this blended approach and across the different issues you're trying to tackle, rather than just doing I'm going to do nature recovery here. Nature recovery linked to resilience has benefits. Nature recovery linked to carbon sequestration has potential, but nature recovery, for the sake of nature recovery, does not lend itself to a market mechanism, I think.
Speaker 2:So we have to rethink about the mechanism maybe, but this is a bigger issue to talk about. But thank you very much, gudrun, for making this very sound and down-to-earth frame for us. So how can we tackle climate crisis and how the mechanism of the world and the world order works? And with this could you just sum up kind of a manifesto steps that business can take to be in this world but also help changing it.
Speaker 4:Of course. So I think it's really important for businesses to have. You know, a balanced scorecard is something that's been talked about for years. How are we measured? What are we measured on? So, if business leaders are serious about playing their part in ensuring and let's be honest, this is about ensuring that future generations have a planet that is livable, and I would imagine the majority of business leaders have children that that are pestering them and, um, they want them to have a nice life.
Speaker 4:So the first thing has got to be about being being comfortable with being uncomfortable and not knowing the answers. That is the first thing, I think. The second thing is around accepting that what your company does today might not be what your company needs to do in 10 years time If it is going to survive. You know, this isn't about saving the planet. This is about saving our nice lifestyles and the businesses that we work with. And the third thing, I think, is about mobilizing talent as much as possible, whether that is working with that, bringing in the people that you work with around the, in the communities around around where you operate your employees, your suppliers really being prepared to be challenged and enable people to come up with solutions. And I think the boldest business leaders are putting these issues into their remuneration and they're actually saying, no, we will be measured on this as much as we measured on our quarterly sales growth or whatever it might be. So, yeah, be open to being challenged and embrace it and want to be part of the solution.
Speaker 3:Don't just stick your head in the sand and and say that it's the next leader's responsibility otherwise we'll take a big old wallop out of your pay packet and then you'll really feel it, won't you? Good, hey, listen. So, um, oh, and I was going to give. We need to give a plug to. I'm going to do it for you. Good, gudrun, to Business and Community's Seven Steps Manifesto on business. You've got it? Oh, yes, you've. Actually. You can walk the talk, if you want, by downloading Manifesto now from the Business and the Community website. There you go, I've done your plug for you, gudrun. Last question for you, if you're ready. Our network is ironically called Do Not Smile, because we believe we need to make see you smile the sooner the head that it works. Because we believe we need to make sustainability something that brings happiness into the world. So what object of bird song always makes me sigh?
Speaker 4:always makes me wow, that's, that's.
Speaker 3:That is beautiful and that's one of those lines. Good room, where everybody listening will have heard bird song, as you said it. It's a beautiful thing. It's a beautiful thing. Well, thank you so much. Good room. We now know the steps the businesses need to say we finally, because I don't think we've done it before damla tackled climate action in the boardroom. I'm glad we got there. Only took 36 episodes, so good.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for joining us and damla over to you so thanks to everyone who has listened to our good guys podcast, brought to you by the do not smile network of agencies and make sure you listen to future episodes, where we'll be talking to more amazing people about how we can work together to create a more sustainable future.
Speaker 3:So thank you Gudrun, thank you Damla thank you, bye, good guys.
Speaker 1:A podcast series on sustainability. Thank you Bye, good Geist. A podcast series on sustainability Hosted by Damla Özler and Steve Connor, brought to you by the DNS Network.
