GoodGeist
A podcast on sustainability, hosted by Damla Özlüer and Steve Connor, brought to you by the DNS Network. Looking at sustainability issues, communications, and featuring global guests from a wide variety of sectors such as business, NGOs and government.
GoodGeist
Falling in Love (with Public Transport), with Jason Prince
Imagine transforming your city's transport system into a beacon of sustainability – and beauty! Join us as we sit down with Jason Prince, the director of the UK's Urban Transport Group. We talk through Jason's journey from energy policy and climate change economics to becoming a leading advocate for urban transport. He offers an insider's perspective on the UK's Bus Services Act 2017, a pivotal moment for revitalising bus services, and shares the ambitious vision of deploying 15,000 zero-emission buses by 2036.
We also journey across the globe as Jason shares urban transport innovations he's encountered, and learn from the successes of cities like Singapore, Barcelona, and Copenhagen, each setting benchmarks in sustainable mobility. Jason brings Barcelona's green axis project to life, showing how pedestrianising city blocks can create more liveable and accessible urban spaces.
And finally, packed into our 25 minutes, we confront the post-pandemic realities facing public transport in the UK and discover how regions like Greater Manchester are pioneering solutions that integrate buses, trams, and bikes, and why the "four A's" strategy—available, affordable, accessible, and aspirational—is crucial for rekindling public love for mass transit.
Follow GoodGeist for more episodes on sustainability, communications and how creativity can help make the world a better place.
Good Geist, a podcast series on sustainability hosted by Damla Özler and Steve Connor, brought to you by the DNS Network.
Speaker 2:Hello, hello everyone, you are listening to Good Guys, the message on sustainability which is brought to you by the DNS Network, the global network of agencies dedicated to making the world a better place. This is Damla from Mira Agency Istanbul.
Speaker 3:And this is Steve from Creative Concern in Manchester. This podcast series explores global sustainability issues, how they're communicated and what creativity can do to make positive change happen.
Speaker 2:So in this episode we are going to talk about falling in love again with public transport. Our guest today is Jason Prince, director of the UK's Urban Transport Group, the organisation that represents the UK's network of transport authorities. Its mission is lovely and is to see green, fair, healthy and prosperous places with public transport and active travel options that provide access and opportunity for all.
Speaker 3:And just so you all get to know our guest properly prior to joining UTG, Jason was Head of Public Affairs for the Greater Manchester Combined Authority, before that worked for the City Regions Transport Authority and before that worked for a Member of Parliament too, amongst many other bits and bobs on his CV. So, Jason, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to daniel and myself well, great to be here.
Speaker 4:I, who is this person listening, listening back to my profile, it's like have I done so much? Well, no, great to be here. Thank you for uh. Thank you for inviting me on and to really talk about uh, about, about the love letter, about transport and sustainability oh, that's wonderful.
Speaker 2:That's wonderful and in's wonderful and in just our area. But, jason, first of all, we always like to get to know our guests a little bit better, so tell us about your sustainable journey to becoming a passionate advocate for urban transport. How did this happen?
Speaker 4:Well, that's a really good question. So when I came late to the party, effectively I would say I came pretty late. I'm Gen Z, I'm 50 years old. If you saw a picture I know it would be hard to believe, but yeah, I came quite late to the party profile.
Speaker 4:I, in broader sustainability, I came when I was working for a member of parliament. I worked on energy policy uh, something I've never done before and that was that really opened my eyes to some of the general sustainability challenges we face uh in the country and across the uk, and one of the big energy policy areas I worked on was energy efficiency and, for international listeners, the UK has the leakiest homes, I think, in Europe. Our homes are cold and it's such a simple thing we can do to to upgrade them and make them warmer and more secure and save energy that way. But while I was doing uh, while I was working in palmer, I went back to university and I did a degree in politics, philosophy, economics, and I did my economics degree in climate change and it was through that when I started to learn about transport, uh doing case studies about uh, some cases about transport projects across the globe. I studied some in Brazil, studied some from across different parts of the globe, and it was all about learning about I'm sure you've had this or discussed this on a podcast before about the Stern Review, which is a seminal piece of work that was in the UK and that made me think, actually there's something here.
Speaker 4:Now, I am also a bit of a transport geek. I do like trains. I don't necessarily go down and write their numbers at railway stations and great to those people that do fantastic. But I think once I'd learned more about climate economics when I moved on from working for a member of Parliament, I actually worked in the transport sector and one of the things I did, one of the first things I ever did, was working at what I would say was a really vital piece of legislation in this country, which was the Bus Services Act 2017. It was done by the last government and great kudos to them and for the first time in years, buses were a thing. Buses were important, and it was through learning about buses and the impact they had on just how we move in sustainability. That's when I think I started to get that bug about being a bit of an advocate for transport, and from then I've been very lucky to then move it through to the job that I'm in.
Speaker 3:Amazing. That's a good old journey there. I think that was a day rider, A one-way job it was. That was a full day rider clipper. So just to stay with buses and we'd love to leave with this bit. We're going to go back to big picture stuff in a minute, but a bit of with a bit of breaking news, because you've got a new report out this week from UTG about unlocking a green bus revolution. Do you want to tell us about what that report means for Britain's buses and what the recommendations are?
Speaker 4:Yeah, so I mean buses are. Buses are huge. So I mean buses are huge. Buses are the backbone of any public transport system. From cities I've been to across the I mean I've been lucky to travel across the globe Buses are often seen as a Cinderella service, but actually they're usually the backbone. I think and in the UK we have, I think buses is the most used form of public transport, not trains or anything like that, not trams, it's the bus.
Speaker 4:And one thing we did a really important piece of research on, which is quite topical, particularly about today's podcast is about actually the journey to zero emission buses, and our research found that to hit our targets across the big cities within England there needs to be 15,000 zero emission buses on the road by 2036. That is a huge number. Great progress has been made in delivering that. I think that's fantastic. I mean, there are about 7%, though, in London and other areas, but we roughly need about 1,200 zero emission buses every year on our roads. And that's what our research says. And what it says is the manufacturing capability to build them is ready. We have great manufacturing capability in the UK, as there is across the globe, but we can service that need in the UK, which is great.
Speaker 4:But there are challenges about funding, there are challenges about policy certainty and there's also challenges which I don't know if you've discussed previously and it's, I think, something which countries are grappling with is challenges about grid capacity as we all move to decarbonization. How do we allocate space for the priority areas when there are, when there's probably restrictions in the supply grid? But no, I mean, I think overall it's it's quite inspirational about. Actually there is a pathway to delivery here and it is achievable. So great work to Monta in my team who led the report. It's a third of a series of reports we've done on buses over the past year and hopefully this will help government in formulating some policy.
Speaker 2:Jason, I'm going to go a bit off script here because it just tuned in me, so I have to ask this question. When we talk about falling in love with the public transportation again, then something in our minds begin to work Like I'm listening to Elvis Presley, I'm listening to something very exciting. I'm not listening something about public transport or buses or something. I'm listening something very good. And then the report comes and it's titled Unlocking the Green Bus Revolution. So again I'm in Moulin Rouge being part of a very exciting movement. So how much of this was deliberate?
Speaker 4:How much was deliberate.
Speaker 4:I think there's a particular moment in time in the UK where we are able to influence policy, I would say for a generation, and that's what excites me, uh, and I think by putting so there is what the timing was definitely deliberate, without a doubt, all our reports we've published this year have been deliberate.
Speaker 4:Deliberate so that we can affect change which will not just affect me and my family but affect the generations which are coming behind and we we know research says that Gen Z and alphas and millennials. They're much more attuned to probably some of the people who are probably in power, to sustainability, to the needs of a future planet. So it was very deliberate about putting this report out. And the last report we did, actually ahead of this one, was again on, actually, if you put capital money very technical but if you put capital money into zero emission buses, you can actually get more people on buses if you invest those savings from getting rid of dirty diesels and putting it into green buses. So, yeah, really deliberate, because I my job is to affect change and that's exactly why we position the framing of the report and why we've launched it now, at the early stages of a new government right in there changes for a generation.
Speaker 3:So, um, as you'll know, jason, we're this is a very internationalist podcast um, and we literally, genuinely we ranged all over the world, which is lovely. You've traveled widely, you're also a geek, but on transport, but you stopped short of the full time spotter. So, from your global view, what, where do you think? Where's really getting this right? Where's doing urban transport really well across the planet right now?
Speaker 4:Really good question, and so three places sort of stick out to me. One is Singapore. Singapore is really good at urban transport. Now, it's a small state, it's a relatively small state, but I think they hit the metric of a clean, efficient system, really well connected, of various different modes, and it's really accessible. Another place and I've just come back there from annual leave and the city which actually struck me was Barcelona.
Speaker 4:Barcelona, we navigated Number one. We got a weekend pass which was really good value, so automatically you feel that you can access a network and then that network can get you everywhere, absolutely everywhere. We did a combination of buses, we did a combination of the metro and they've got new metro trains which look fantastic. Uh, I was still trying to find out who was making them, so I I need to look that up. Was it which company was making them? That's how sad I am, but they've got new metro trains and all air conditioned. I mean, you're in heat of 36 degrees in Barcelona, you're how many feet underground and you're in this lovely cool train. So that was another place.
Speaker 4:But my probably ultimate place, which I've been to probably every year, is Copenhagen. Copenhagen does something incredibly well it mixes public transport and active travel into a coherent system and you feel that you don't feel there's a competition between different modes of public transport. It almost it just feels like it's harmonious. And I mean, the easiest thing we can all do when traveling is walking and all they put walking and spaces and space and places as important as the modes for public transport as well, and for my husband who doesn't drive, who uses public transport, he finds it a really comfortable and easy place to navigate and get around.
Speaker 2:Well, we were talking about making Istanbul a walkable city and we had this manifest for it, etc. But I do know how hard it is to engage people in one thing this, but also making this city walkable. So, yes, copenhagen, as you say, is a brilliant example of how things can be done harmoniously to achieve that goal. Yeah, you made me just dream and dream and dream, sitting in Istanbul and thinking of the traffic. I'll see now. Thank you very much.
Speaker 4:One thing I would say, going back to Barcelona, which I didn't know until I went there what Barcelona have done recently.
Speaker 4:They've done what's called a green axis through the city and I think it's over 10 blocks Don't ask me to pronounce the name of the road it's in and across these 10 blocks they've pedestrianised the roads so you can walk roughly 10 blocks from Plas de Catalunya all the way through and it's the space You've got seating, you have people cycling, using scooters, playgrounds, greenery, and for a city of Barcelona's size to just say one whole street we will change into livable space really changes For me. I'd not seen that in a city like that before. Uh, and I think it's now in the top 10 of most uh, one of the best streets in the world, and I think if you can do it in such a dense city like barcelona, it gives me hope that you can do it in other dense cities like Istanbul and across the world. But I was very impressed by what they've done over the past few years on this sort of green access. It was excellent.
Speaker 2:So we talked about the international examples and the best practices. I'm going to ask you something related to this, but about your own condition there. Utg represents the places and cities and organisations delivering critical transport, investment and services right across the country. So how are you generally doing in terms of delivering transport there in UK?
Speaker 4:So it's a really good question. So we released a report earlier this year, which we'll do do every year, which is it basically monitors the trends of public transport. And what our report found which was which for me that was quite startling is that people are making fewer trips in our main areas by public transport. Commuting is dramatically curtailed. Uh, rail season tickets, which is a big form of the community base, dropped by 66, was 60% lower than before the pandemic. And also, what was really concerning is people were cycling less than during the pandemic. That was a snapshot of where we were last year.
Speaker 4:What's happening is there is, I don't want to say, recovery from the pandemic, but things are moving forward and at pace and I think what gives me, what excites me, uh and I live in in greater manchester uh, the, uh, the capital.
Speaker 4:You could argue with the united kingdom and londoners will not necessarily agree with that, but the cultural hub of the UK and what we've seen through devolution and our international listeners may not understand is the UK is a very centralised state, everything is centralised within central government, but over the past few years, greater powers are coming to our regions, very similar to a German model we're not federal but greater powers to our city regions and there's a change and within Greater Manchester, political strength and political leaders using new powers like that bus legislation and they were able to say, actually we're going to connect our buses to our tram network and we're going to bring our bikes in.
Speaker 4:And I'm really excited more by the opportunity which all our big members, our city regions, are wanting to do because ultimately they know that if you can help people move on to public transport, your cities will be greener, your economy will flourish and it's a much more sustainable way to live. So I'm optimistic but from the pandemic we're starting from a bit lower base than probably would have liked to have the pandemic not happened.
Speaker 3:So we're going to. Let's get on to what we do about getting people back onto transport. I, I, but thank you in particular for painting that picture of places in the world that are doing it really really well. Um, I love that barcelona pedestrianized street that's transforming the city. Uh, of course, we have a pedestrianized street in the heart of Manchester which is almost as beautiful. It's called Market Street and, damla, when you're next to town, I will take you to Market Street. It's a thing of extraordinary sophistication.
Speaker 4:It's a unique space. I'm excited.
Speaker 3:No, I don't want to oversell it. I don't want to oversell it. Anyway, Jason, moving back to the question in hand, so that revolution we need to bring about and that sort of baseline where we are post-COVID, where we need to get to getting people out of their cars, get back on track in terms of the carbon reduction, creating livable towns and cities that we know we can deliver, but only through addressing air quality issues, better distribution of space towards people and bikes and stuff. So to do that, the thousand euro question is how do we get people to fall back in love with public transport?
Speaker 4:There are four A's, I believe, to getting people to fall back in love with public transport. There are four A's, I believe, to getting people to fall back in love with public transport, and I think the first one is making public transport available. Second one is making it affordable. The third is making it accessible, and that isn't about onboard accessibility, necessarily. It's about accessibility in terms of geography. And the fourth one, which I think for me is really important, is aspirational. Why should our current aspirations for public transport be mediocre? And I it frustrates me that when you, uh, when you see how some parts of the public transport system are working in the uk, it seems the best that we can aspire to is just to do what is necessary, and we struggle to do that. And we should aspire to building transport systems and networks that are clean, what are bright, what get you to places where you want to go, what will get you to places where you want to go, rather than just doing it as a purely functional need of an economy. So I think for me, those four A's are really, really important.
Speaker 4:I was in Porto earlier this year and, what was really interesting, they launched a marketing campaign on how to get people onto buses again, how to get your millennials and your Gen Zs onto buses.
Speaker 4:Because people were moving to the shiny trams. Now, great, they were picking a mode, but actually they wanted to educate young people. Actually, the buses are also part of that system and they can get you to places which the tram can't. And it was a great campaign, a really inspirational campaign of how making the bus an aspirational form of transport rather than just something where you just get on and get off and it fits within your life. So for me, if you can put the four, if we can build transport system around the user against the principles of the four a's, then I'm sure that those rose petals, that love letter, then we can send that through and then we can start to build networks which are for the people and the user at its heart so I completely agree and I, I, I love a sort of four a's bullet point list that you can focus in on.
Speaker 3:And could we stretch it a little bit, jason, the aspirational piece to one thing that, um, there was a head of transport in a city we both know well, who's moved on now but he always used to talk when he was out and about in local towns and boroughs. He'd talk about building a fit-for-purpose transport interchange and I'd always get really angry about it. I don't know why. It's a bit irrational, but go, why is it fit-for-purpose? Why isn't it beautiful, exactly, and gorgeous and spectacular and somewhere that you want to be? So it's almost the infrastructure as well, isn't it? It's not just the buses, but we need to make the whole thing, I mean it's, it's like some transport interchanges I won't name them.
Speaker 4:I like going to a logistics shed. They're that exciting in terms of great metal sheds. What we do need to do is for people to go to these places where they have a choice, this amazing choice of how to get around and make them liveable places. And I think there's a great example of that happening in greater manchester, in stockport. They've ripped out a bus station, they've built this bus station and inside it's curved, they've put beautiful wood around, around the walls there's lots of glass and on top of the bus station there is a public park. I mean, what more can you do? There is a public park with a great spiral, uh, spiral, uh, a pathway down to the station and it's it's.
Speaker 4:It comes back to what I said earlier it's a livable place. You feel you can spend time there and you can also get a bus or get a train. You're not going to this depressing grey box which has no heating, no windows, where you may I wouldn't say fear for your life, but your mood is probably definitely brought down. But your mood is probably definitely brought down. And if we can do more stop-port interchanges and actually get people to think about place and transport feeding off these great places, then that's how we can get people to think, yeah, it fits with me actually.
Speaker 2:Me listening to you two. Tackling climate crisis is one thing, but tackling mediocrity is another goal for all of us, I think. So we always ask the question what more can we do? And maybe some more sangria thinking of. So, jason, it was lovely to hear what you have to say and it was lovely to hear the love story with us and the public transport, but I have to come back with the final question, and the final question is our network is ironically called do not smile, because we need to make sustainability a subject that brings happiness into the world. So what object, place or person always makes you smile?
Speaker 4:oh gosh, I'm gonna pick one for each very quickly. The object is my camera, my hobby is so my I, my camera, because my hobby is a photography. So, and what photography does? It allows me to get a snapshot of time which no one else has except me, but also it gets me out there, and sometimes it's great just going to the train station and getting a two hour train journey to the Lake District with my camera pottering around for a day. It gets me out so that I think that's my object.
Speaker 4:The place has to be Copenhagen. I mean, I love Copenhagen, I think it's a city which which makes me feel comfortable and safe and it's, it's almost an example of what you can do. And a person I think for me may sound corny, but it's my husband. My husband developed epilepsy about 10 years ago and so, and because he's so dependent on public transport, it gives me a very unique lens of how he needs to navigate and what public transport needs to do for him. Transport needs to do for him, and understanding his needs has helped me and broaden my mind about understanding broader person's needs.
Speaker 3:Well, I don't know about you, damla, but there's a whole lot of love, whole lot of love going on on this podcast episode. That's um, it's, it's gorgeous. So we've absolutely, I think we figured out jason. We figured out how to get people to fall back in love with it. We didn't get distracted by how much we don't like cars we've given the aspirational.
Speaker 3:We've given the aspirational tone we've managed to stay focused on public transport and not demonizing drivers, which is a very bad thing to do, very bad, very um. So it's been a brilliant conversation. We've loved talking to you, jason, thank you so so, on public transport and not demonizing drivers, which is a very bad thing to do, very bad, very bad. So it's been a brilliant conversation. We've loved talking to you, jason.
Speaker 2:Thank you so, so much. Damla over to you to wrap us up. So thanks to everyone who has listened to our Good Guys podcast, brought to you by the Do Not Smile network of agencies.
Speaker 3:And make sure you listen to future episodes, where we'll be talking to more amazing people like Jason about how we can work together to create a more sustainable future. So see you Damla, See you Jason.
Speaker 2:See you.
Speaker 1:Good Geist, a podcast series on sustainability Hosted by Damla Özler and Steve Connor, brought to you by the DNS Network.
