GoodGeist
A podcast on sustainability, hosted by Damla Özlüer and Steve Connor, brought to you by the DNS Network. Looking at sustainability issues, communications, and featuring global guests from a wide variety of sectors such as business, NGOs and government.
GoodGeist
The Shanghai Vision, with Isabel Nepstad
In this episode we're in conversation with Isabel Nepstad, who takes us on a journey from her beginnings in the Amazon region of Brazil to her current influential role as a senior advisor to both Governments and the agricultural sector. She discusses the founding of Bella Terra Consulting in Shanghai and shares the impactful work her team is doing to promote better environmental standards from field to fork.
She also explores the critical role China plays in the global sustainability landscape. Learn about the generational shift towards eco-friendly practices among Chinese youth and the vital role of academic research in supporting these initiatives. Listen in for a thought-provoking discussion that not only informs but inspires action towards a greener future.
Follow GoodGeist for more episodes on sustainability, communications and how creativity can help make the world a better place.
Good Geist, a podcast series on sustainability hosted by Damla Özler and Steve Connor, brought to you by the DNS Network.
Speaker 2:Hello, hello everyone, you are listening to Good Guys, the message on sustainability which is brought to you by the DNS Network, the global network of agencies dedicated to making the world a better place. This is Damla from Mira Agency, istanbul, and.
Speaker 3:This is Steve from Creative Concern in Manchester. This podcast series explores global sustainability issues, how they're communicated and what creativity can do to make positive change happen.
Speaker 2:So in this episode we're going to talk to Isabel Nefstad, who is on the steering committee for the World Economic Forum's Tropical Forest Alliance and a senior advisor for the Chinese Ministry of Ecology and Environmental Corporation Office. I did it, steve. Yes.
Speaker 3:Yeah, there's a lot in there for you to get through. Isabel's got quite the resume. Actually, she's also CEO of Bellaterra Management Consulting in Shanghai, brings over a dozen years of experience as a sustainability professional in the food and agriculture industry over a dozen years of experience as a sustainability professional in the food and agriculture industry and we're going to get into this later, Isabel but has a multitude of academic ties and is currently pursuing a master's. So, Isabel, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to Dan and myself.
Speaker 4:Yeah, hello both of you. Very nice to talk to you today.
Speaker 3:Great. So first of all, I need to make a declaration of interest, and I well that we've both been lucky enough to work with the lovely people at Roundtable on responsible soy, but for everybody listening they won't know your background, so we always like to get a bit of a personal story to kick things off. Tell us what led to you working on sustainable supply chains, food agriculture, and how did you come to be based out of China.
Speaker 4:Yeah, thank you, steve, and thank you so much for the introduction and welcoming me to your podcast.
Speaker 4:Very happy to be here and yeah, that's a great question. I started to be interested in sustainability and the environment at a very early age. I actually grew up in the Amazon region of Brazil where my father was a tropical forest ecologist, so that really exposed me to the environment and the importance of protecting nature, like the Amazon rainforest, at a very early age and led me into wanting to pursue academics and my career in environmental protection. And food and agriculture has always been an interest of me and looking at environmental issues in the food and agriculture space in the US, also Brazil, big agricultural countries, but then also realizing China's also a big market and agriculture country. And so, having worked a little bit in the US, also in Brazil then I finally landed in China and really fell in love with it, but also seeing all of these synergies between China being a major importer of agriculture and food products from Brazil and the US, and so that really paved the way for my career in China and first going, coming to China in 2010 and really not leaving since.
Speaker 4:Wow, so we can say, born and bred to be sustainable. Yes, yeah, it definitely impacted me very, very early on.
Speaker 2:So let's get a sense of your work today, Isabel. Could you give us and our listeners a quick snapshot of what an average day at Bellatea involves? What do you do?
Speaker 4:Yes, so a little bit about Bellatea. We're a small and young company. I founded the company back in 2021 here in China, in Shanghai, and basically to continue the different sustainability efforts. I was previously working for different NGOs and organizations based in China and then serving as a consultant for different organizations like the Roundtable for Responsible Soy and the World Economic Forum Tropical Forest Alliance, and realizing that there was really a growing interest and demand in China to provide sustainable consulting, and so first started as just myself in 2021, and then got approached by more organizations and then I hired a colleague to join to support in some of the initiatives and I would say we grew very organically from just being myself to hiring one full-time colleague and then some interns, and then some of them came on full-time and now we have eight people and we really work in different areas, from doing sustainability standards and localizing them to the China context so that they can be adapted and used in China. So that they can be adapted and used in China, we also provide sustainable strategy consulting, so helping companies, for example, multinationals, that want to localize and adapt their strategies in China, and then also supporting and facilitating different dialogues and exchanges, especially between China and other countries like European countries, brazil, indonesia and other countries as well. We also have been a policy advisor and co-author for different policy recommendations for the Ministry of Ecology and Environment. Co-author for different policy recommendations for the Ministry of Ecology and Environment. So just these are sort of different areas that we work on A typical day in the life.
Speaker 4:Working at Bella Teja, we're quite a sort of nimble team. We have colleagues here in Beijing, where I am now I was just here for the week but I'm based in Shanghai and we have also a few colleagues based in Shanghai and we have a lot of late night calls with partners in Brazil or in Europe or the US. But then during the day we're quite active because we see it's really important to be networking and meeting with different partners, so industry, associations, ngos, companies and clients. We also travel throughout China too, so we'll go and visit farms in the Northeast China or we will go visit some of the tech cities in southern China or just going to different events and networking a lot. So it's quite a sort of active and, yeah, sort of never a dull moment in.
Speaker 3:China.
Speaker 3:China's very active. The average Bellator a day sounds exhausting actually, but very worthwhile actually. So before we I mean I know Daman and I want to get into kind of sustainability in China and what the narrative is. But and I'm worried about asking this question, isabel, because it's like a whole master's thesis of stuff but I don't think on this podcast, after 30 episodes, we've ever really talked about sustainable supply chains and they're like massively important they represent for carbon alone. It's like the whole scope three debate around climate change. But they're quite nuanced. A lot of people don't understand them and you work on supply chains really extensively and a lot of people won't understand them and how important they are for sustainability. So if you had to explain sustainable supply chains to our listeners, what would you say?
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's a very good question and I think you're right, it's sort of a new topic and, yeah, depending on who you talk to a lot of questions and need clarifications. And especially, you mentioned different scope of emissions to consider. Where do we claim our emissions reductions across the supply chain? Because we can think of our own bubble, whether it's our own farm, and how do we reduce our emissions within our farm. But then we have to think about all the things that come into our farm or even, with a country, things that are imported into a country, and so now we live in a globalized world. So are we just going to make the claims on emissions produced within our farm or within our country? But then we're importing. You know whether it's fertilizers or different raw materials, raw materials and how do we calculate those emissions? Or even you know those that deliver and transport different products to the farm or to the country, and then you know, going to the indirect emissions, so we have to think about that and you mentioned that it makes up a significant portion of emissions. So really going, looking at the whole supply chain, all of the production to sourcing, to the final consumer and in supermarkets and onto the table, so really sort of the concept of farm to fork as well. And you know, I think, as we look at global trade and we think of countries that are importing, and now countries are paying more attention to how they can implement sustainable sourcing and sustainable trade, and I think again it's sort of whose responsibility is it?
Speaker 4:But really thinking holistically across the supply chain and also thinking about not just within your own area but also who you're influencing and your suppliers and beyond, and it's complicated we have to work together. Sometimes you don't really know who your suppliers are. There's direct suppliers and indirect suppliers, or maybe you're purchasing something from a middleman or from even it's two degrees away from the original producer, so it can get quite complicated quite quickly. And where can we get the transparency and traceability even is quite complicated. But I think there's good progress and at least starting to collect up the data and information, we can start to build more transparency and be able to really control supply chains and also seeing good progress made from different companies, as they have very ambitious sustainability agendas in place to manage their whole supply chain all the way back to production.
Speaker 4:And I'd also note too, because you know, as it's easy to stay in our own bubbles or our own farms or our own countries, and paying attention to those scope three emissions. And paying attention to those scope three emissions. And, for example, one Chinese company is showing in their sustainability report that, for example, the soybeans and soybean meal that they import is within their scope three emissions, but it does account for nearly 90% of their emissions, considering the land use and the potential conversion of natural habitat or deforestation. So that is quite significant. So again, not just our direct and within our own farm, but going beyond and looking all the way back to the sourcing of raw materials, whether it's agricultural products, or also, you know, if we get into mining and other sectors, as well, it's great that you mentioned our own bubbles and our own countries and our own perception, because one of the things that is really exciting about having you on the podcast is the opportunity to talk about China.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, we all know, after the fall of Babylonian Tower, we became different kinds of cultures and kinds of languages and everything means something else in another language. But also in this climate crisis, we have to be together and work together and communicate together, and one of the campaigns Steve and I and our DNS network has done before was the climate generations, because we are not only Turkish, english, chinese and something. We are climate generations now, when we are kind of all together in this. So that's really fascinating for us, especially when we're thinking about China, because it's it has a huge impact, but also a very different culture impact, but also a very different culture. I do remember reading a paper that states that we have to adopt ourselves, when talking about China, to the culture, because it sort of has a very long-term vision that Western civilizations don't comprehend actually. So we would like to find out your take on the cultural perspective there. On sustainability, is the narrative so different from the Western narrative? How does it go there?
Speaker 4:Yeah, no, thank you for this question, and that was also one of the reasons why I came to China and sparked my interest. And also, just it's been incredible to really feel like I've been part of the journey of China's developing its sustainable development goals and commitments and really seeing that firsthand. Having lived in China and yeah, I mean China, you know, I like to sort of share a bit of the history, because China started off really as an agricultural civilization. Agriculture was really sort of the backbone of its culture and of course, for a while China was a very poor country and after that, as China opened up, it started to really develop its industry and try to improve its economy and so during the open and reform period, china went through a rapid industrialization and so from an agricultural civilization China became an industrial civilization and so we saw about 30 years of China's rapid economic growth and of course it made some remarkable achievements in terms of lifting millions of people out of poverty and also really contributing to a strong and large middle class and rising GDP. But as a sort of negative consequence from its industrial growth, china also witnessed and the people really witnessed firsthand the impacts of industrialization and severe pollution and a lot of degraded land and water and air pollution and seeing in some of the regions where there was a lot of industrialization, that water was just no longer drinkable, fish were dying. So they started to really develop different environmental policies, establishing different laws on pollution control. And so then we really see China entering into this ecological civilization which President Xi Jinping has coined this concept, and China is really embracing this ecological civilization and really it's very interesting because it's really ingrained throughout society and you see different phrases put up by different companies or cities and even just as propaganda to encourage the people to embrace this concept. Of course, still a lot of you know education and learning and you know how to really implement it. But another phrase is the idea of you know clear waters and lucid mountains are equivalent to gold and silver mountains, so really showing that nature is an important asset here and so people also really embrace that concept to really value nature and, I think, nature protection.
Speaker 4:It has a long history in China, rooted in some of the Buddhist and different Chinese philosophies, but now we're really seeing this sort of modern approach and China has also implemented their laws and regulations and also setting their commitment on the dual carbon, so carbon peaking by 2030 and carbon neutrality by 2060. And one thing that I think is different than Western countries and especially democracies is and China embraces a socialist approach with Chinese characteristics, like socialist democracy with Chinese characteristics. But one thing is in China the role of government is so important and so strong and we see that President Xi Jinping has also been the president for a long time and also, you know, there's no longer a term, sort of any sort of deadlines, so he can maintain these policies. So that gives a sense of stability and sort of continuation of these different environmental policies, which in Western countries, you know, maybe you change your president every four years, so that can lead to sort of disruptions in the continuation of policies. So that gives China a strong foundation to really carry out these policies.
Speaker 4:And in some of my work, really seeing how when a law comes into place in China it's enforced immediately and everyone has to comply. So especially in earlier looking at the textiles industry and really setting stringent laws on water pollution management, wastewater management and everyone, all the companies, all the suppliers they really have to implement right away. And now in the last, recently seeing that in the pig farming sector. So proper management of manure and wastewater management. So really seeing that you know, once something is decided by the government in China, it's implemented, you know, right away, and things can move very quickly in China. So you know, once something becomes a trend or, yeah, there's a new law in place, it moves quite quickly and things are quite efficient. So it's been really interesting to watch this. But at the same time, china is very practical. So some things that there might be some maybe sensitivities, they will still sort of watch and see what to do and especially seeing Western countries on different issues, the Chinese will always maintain a very practical approach on different issues.
Speaker 2:You just opened the door for my follow-up because I just wrote to Steve that I want to follow up and I'm going to walk on glass broken glass at the moment. So I have to phrase it very carefully, very carefully. Even from the outside. We do know that China's culture is different than the Western culture and individuality is not a prime aspiration. Maybe yes, in the Western cultures we do love our individuality and we do believe that it brings more prosperity and creativity and so on. But on the other hand, what you just said, that in the face of a very, very big crisis and in the face of the need for behavioral change and social change quickly, chinese culture may have some kind of edge to make this happen. So can you just tell us about the social impact of the environmental change over there? How does the society react to behavioral change and how does this affect the communication of sustainability?
Speaker 4:Yeah, very good question. You know, I think it's still, you know there still needs time for education and learning. And I think you know, like any developing developed country, you know people want to, you know to have a prosperous life and they want to live a high quality life and also sort of making money and having a thriving business and supporting your family. And also Also, china has a history of poverty and hunger, and even some of my older colleagues talk about when they were children they would only eat meat maybe once a year at Chinese New Year, and so they still have this sentiment and feeling. And now that China is a much more prosperous country, and especially now their children or grandchildren can afford to, you know, eat meat every day or, you know, travel. They really want to give their family a quality life, and so you know there's still that, you know, wanting to have that same sort of living standard as what you might see in Europe and not sort of being told to, you know, maybe eat less meat, for example.
Speaker 4:But I think overall I find that the Chinese are very humble people.
Speaker 4:They're really good at, they're very savvy, humble people.
Speaker 4:They're really good at, they're very savvy, they're good at saving money and even you know how to, maybe, you know, take the subway because it's cheaper than you know getting a car, or and getting like a taxi is very cheap in comparison to Europe, or, you know, or eating food that's maybe less cost.
Speaker 4:So I do find that, and if you compare, per capita, the Chinese, they do eat less meat and I would say there's also just that sort of more frugality, whereas sometimes I think in the Western countries we really live in abundance and you know, of course, I think everyone is, you know, sort of embracing this sort of capitalist society and globalization and especially if you have, you know, excessive cheap products, you know. So there's different ways, but I think it's all part of a learning journey. But especially young people, I think they're really wanting to return to the countryside and wanting to be out in nature. So I do see this movement from young people in China to sort of embrace climate change efforts and being eco-friendly. So seeing a lot of these initiatives, grassroots initiatives in China coming from the young people. But again, I think it'll take time, but I do think that there's different initiatives that can be learned from China and shared with the world.
Speaker 3:So, isabel, I was going to ask you about your work on youth empowerment, but I think you covered it there really well. I mean, it's clear you work on that. So I'm going to ask about another linkage of yours that seems to be really important. It's really evident when you read your background and what you've done. But just before we wrap up, is you've kept constant ties, haven't you, with that world of learning and research and academia in it, and consistently, and currently studying for a master's as well. So how do you bring that kind of academia and research into your work?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean, I think academic research is so important, especially in, you know, in China they do care about where you're getting your information from and ensuring that it's you know.
Speaker 4:And also you know it is a continuous learning process, as you know, building the capacity and know-how on sustainability issues, new topics and engaging with the academic community in China and keeping that learning journey going Because, as Damla mentioned too, it's the behavioral change that's really required and I think sometimes, working with companies or government, they do need that capacity building and especially now as more companies are looking to hire, you know, sustainability professionals or you know, people to fulfill all of the ESG requirements, be, you know, taking online classes or learning and how do we build up you know, sort of a group of sustainability professionals who really have that knowledge and expertise. So I think learning it's really, you know, a lifelong journey and you know, continuing to learn and engage with the academic community, and we also work with different universities in some of our projects to help build up that sort of, whether it's reports or analysis on projects.
Speaker 2:Isabel, it's been great. Actually. I know I want to talk to you more and more and for hours, but we have limited time. So final question Our network is ironically called Do Not Smile, because we need to make sustainability a subject that brings happiness into the world. So what object, place or person always make you smile?
Speaker 4:What always makes me smile my husband and my dog. They come in a bundle.
Speaker 3:Oh, that's super cute. I can just, I can just see a, a beautiful dog and a husband right now making you smile. Gorgeous. You had that ready, isabel.
Speaker 4:You knew exactly what to say yes, I have lots of pictures of them together.
Speaker 3:Oh, that's amazing. Well listen, isabel, it's been so good talking to you and I think I'm so glad we got to talk about the sort of cultural zeitgeist in China and sustainability, because I know it is so fascinating and so important. As Damla said right at the beginning, you know we need to work harder to build those cultural bridges so that we can actually all collaborate together to make a more sustainable future. So that's been so brilliant talking to you. So, damla, over to you, wrap us up.
Speaker 2:So thanks to everyone who has listened to our Good Guys podcast, brought to you by the Do Not Smile network of agencies.
Speaker 3:And make sure you listen to future episodes. We'll be talking to more amazing people like Isabel about how we can work together to create a more sustainable future. So, Damla, Isabel, see you soon.
Speaker 4:Bye, thank you, bye.
Speaker 1:Good Geist, a podcast series on sustainability Hosted by Damla Özler and Steve Connor, brought to you by Damla Özlüer and Steve Connor. Brought to you by the DNS Network.
