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GoodGeist
A podcast on sustainability, hosted by Damla Özlüer and Steve Connor, brought to you by the DNS Network. Looking at sustainability issues, communications, and featuring global guests from a wide variety of sectors such as business, NGOs and government.
GoodGeist
The Grand Narrative, with Nicolas Perdrix
In this episode we talk to our amazing colleague from the DNS network, Nicolas Perdrix from Sidiese. Discover how their innovative strategies have not only accelerated sustainable practices among their clients but also led to a fruitful partnership with EPSA consultancy, expanding their influence across Europe and beyond.
We tackle the concept of regenerative communications (best avoided?) and look at the role of communications in driving ecological transitions and shaping corporate culture. We address the challenges communication teams face in meeting carbon reduction goals and the critical importance of tailoring sustainability messages to various stakeholders.
Follow GoodGeist for more episodes on sustainability, communications and how creativity can help make the world a better place.
Good Geist, a podcast series on sustainability hosted by Damla Özler and Steve Connor, brought to you by the DNS Network.
Speaker 2:Hello, hello everyone, you are listening to Good Guys, the message on sustainability which is brought to you by the DNS Network, the global network of agencies dedicated to making the world a better place. This is Damla from Mira Agency, istanbul, and.
Speaker 3:And this is Steve from Creative Concern in Manchester. This podcast series explores global sustainability issues, how they're communicated and what creativity can do to make positive change happen.
Speaker 2:So in this episode we're going to talk to our good friend and one of the very first members of DNS network, nikolas Pedrics from the CDSA.
Speaker 3:So it's worth saying, isn't itla? So, under your leadership, nico, um cds has been such total inspiration to me in terms of um developing an incredible role in responsible communications, not just in france, but in the whole francophone world, in fact. Um so your influence is spread all over the all over the world, and with some incredible brands, we also like to think that you are, without a shadow of doubt, the most chic agency in our network.
Speaker 4:Thanks, for talking to us thank you very much, guys.
Speaker 2:I'm really happy to be here with you so n we usually like to start with the personal stories of our guests. And looking at you and your beautiful family, I must say for all our listeners he has a beautiful family but, still looking at you. Why didn't you become a model or an actor? But you put yourself in sustainability.
Speaker 4:Yes, my name is Nicolas Perdri and I've been the general manager of CDS for 20 years now. So 20 years of working on CSR communications and I'm still alive. So it was a struggle, but it's possible. Why CDS? Who is CDS, you know.
Speaker 4:First, for 20 years we've been innovating with our customers on CSR communications. So what we are now is because we shaped our offer that way. With our customers, with our stakeholders, we try to do everything to ensure that our communication helps accelerate the integration of ecological transition into companies' model. This is very at the point. You know how we can contribute to transform the business model of communication.
Speaker 4:To do so, 10 years ago we decided to cross the red line that separated us from CSR consultancies. So we became something very particular a hybrid company, csr consulting and CSR communications. We did this because there was often a lake of maturity in CSR commitments that our customers wanted to communicate and we thought that, coming from communication, we could offer our own style in CSR consulting, with a touch of creativity in the exercise and with the aim to move faster as well, because, as a communication expert, when you are structuring a CSR strategy, you're always impatient to see how it's going to be transformed into communication how these issues are going to be expressed by stakeholders, by the organization itself, and how our communication can help the company's social body to unit around CSR issues to help them to perform.
Speaker 3:So, nicolas, I'm thinking about that 20-year journey, which is obviously really similar to both Damler and myself. We've, we've been on, we've almost been on the same journey for the last 20 years, and don't you feel that, right at the from the very beginning, we we almost created this space that we occupy now, and it's? There are obviously many more agencies doing brand purpose and sustainable communications, but when we started, we were almost creating a kind of a new space for communications, weren't we? Do you agree? Absolutely, yes, yes.
Speaker 4:We opened the way to this kind of communications and this is why now our project is to scale up and to try to open new ways and try to replicate our models. You know we are a fully mature agency now. We know our audiences, our strengths, our impact, but we also know our limitations. So we've got a new project right now. For the time being, we are still working. We are working on it right now. So we still are a medium-sized agency, you know, kind of haute couture house as we say in France, and we want to go to scale house, as we say in France, and we want to go to scale. So what we are after 20 years, what we want to do now, is to scale up.
Speaker 4:And so we decided to transfer our capital to a consultancy group to benefit from support functions to enable us to grow and, um and as well, um, uh to uh, to repeat, to replicate abroad as well, because I think uh, uh that we can help as well abroad.
Speaker 4:You know, like, uh, french market is a very mature because it's um, driven by regulations and um and uh very mature because it's driven by regulations. And this is why we decided to join a group called EPSA consultancy consultancy consultancy group specialised historically in financial operational performance, and we are in the process of building a sustainability and climate consultancy business with it. We opened the way in France and now we want to scale up as well and help to scale in France and in the European markets. I think we will have a talk about it with you guys, and to do so, we are teaming with Ecodev, another Paris-based consultancy with a long history in advertising not advertising advising on CSR, carbon mobility and biodiversity. So we are now around 80 people in Paris, lyon, bordeaux, marseille and in Germany as well, in Dusseldorf for a couple of months and in Barcelona as well. We were the very first project to start and so, yeah, this is it. In the next five years, we'd love to create a benchmark player in transition in the European market.
Speaker 2:Nicolas, I always wanted to ask you a bigger question because when we see your experience in the France market and also the Europe, and especially CDS's experience with big brands you are working with a lot of big brands and maybe you are probably the most experienced with brand CSR communications alongside the DNS network agencies how do you see the corporate journey in sustainability when you started to trailblaze this sustainability communication role and now, when the market is a little bit more mature but still what we feel lacks intellectual depth and sincerity? How do you see this journey? From where did the brands start and now where they are and what are the limitations in sustainability communications?
Speaker 4:French market is mature. Brands in France have a role to play. So we need brands that are committed, and especially at this time. At this time because political power is becoming increasingly radicalized and the issues of ecological transition could be deprioritized by the extremes. So we definitely need to work with brands because, by taking the place of disengaged public authorities, businesses must contribute more than ever to the transition of our social model. And we work with corporates, we work with companies, but the vehicle through which companies express this contribution is their brand discourse.
Speaker 4:So brands must support the effort to challenge lifestyle. Brands are more, I think, awaited than public authorities on those commitments. They are awaited on their commitment to social issues, but they are always committed on the transparency of their own environmental and social impacts. So the role of communication is to support brands in their transition, transforming their production model in line with the ecological transition, but as well support consumers in adopting new ways of consuming, new uses, more virtuous consumption behaviors. But the role of communication is also to contribute to a new and more inclusive imagination, or imaginary, for brands and society.
Speaker 3:So we know that you have a really exciting plan for global domination, nico. That's clear and sort of scaling up the CDS model. But your roots are French and you're a French agency and obviously, as a French agency, it would be ridiculous if we didn't talk about philosophy. So what is the CIDIER's philosophy? I think it would be good for you to explain, for example, the grand narrative and how CIDIER shapes a story about sustainability.
Speaker 4:Yeah, of course Narrative is a word that we use every day and when we talk about narrative at CDS, we have a global vision and means of action within the company, globally, on a global point of view. We are a small agency, a medium-sized company, so we have no ambition to change the narrative of our time, but we do think that another way of presenting the transition is possible. Of course, this kind of, especially for the time being again, it will clash with all the other ways of describing the world and there are hundreds of prospective vision. But our mission anyway is to help shape a new collective imagination and I think for the communication of the major broadcasters can help in this. The economic discourse doesn't help. It's short-term vision, it's profit, it's growth at all costs and in the other hand, the transition discourse provokes a lot of anxiety as well. You know, when we talk about climate bomb, ecological or technical issues, it doesn't inspire any dreams. So we need to rethink the narrative to get new messages across and get on board our stakeholders. So we need to build a new collective imagination around sobriety, new uses. We need to revisit the notion of success as well, beyond the current and dominant models. So there are a lot of myths in businesses that need to be revisited. So this is, on a global point of view, like mass innovation versus innovation of use, mass consumption versus sobriety, individual success versus cooperation, finance against nature and so on. But this is a global.
Speaker 4:At CDS, we work only on the perimeter of companies. So in this perimeter, our methodology for the co-production of narrative is called the great narrative. Why great? It's because we think that to get an organization, stakeholders involved in a story, it's necessary for a CSR narrative to address social issues and stakes in which the company has legitimacy and a legitimate role to play, but that are much bigger, much greater than the company itself. So this is a point of departure.
Speaker 4:And also, you know, the level of confidence we have in what companies have to say has been collapsing and collapsing for many years. So, in the result of this distrust we have, especially because of the political discourse, because of fake news we live in a fake news era with the radicalization of political parties and the link we make between both politics and economy. So we have a lot of doubts about what companies say in general. And to restore this confidence, we need to build more sincere and more truthful narratives and for these narratives to be more truthful, we have decided to co-produce with the company's stakeholders, so with its friends, but with its opponents as well. This is another and the last point of departure of our great narrative methodology. You know what we think. It's a challenge of reconnection, reconnecting audiences, so companies and its people, its stakeholders. Reconnecting internal and external audiences, the emotional and the rational, financial and extra-financial worlds as well, but as well by providing expertise at the human level.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but one thing I do want to ask, and then I'll hand back over to Danma Nico but don't you think it's a really interesting tension that you have when you're developing that very emotional and sometimes quite dynamic narrative with a brand? But you said it yourself, economics can sometimes get in the way, can't it? And you must quite often encounter tension between the narrative that a brand wants to send out into the world and the realities of a marketplace that sometimes works against sobriety, as you call it. Um? And? And so you, how do you resolve that tension when you're working with your clients, um?
Speaker 4:sincerity. Oh, okay, I think, uh it, it's. It's a question of sincerity. You.
Speaker 4:You know we, if you do a great narrative, sincerity is key. We believe that sharing the reality of the world, the steps brands and companies are taking to make progress, their mistakes their success, but their mistakes, their erring ways, earns the trust of audiences. You know, communication is no longer a matter for experts. Communication is about all a culture of courage and sincerity. So we have decided to help our customers build sincere communications where everything is not simple. When we agree to share our successes, we must also agree to share our difficulties, and in a roadmap there are also complexities, failures, complexities, failures. And if shared with sincerity, it will make companies more credible and more listened to. So we believe that the communication about a possible future, without overpromising, will be eventually a powerful lever in the collective ability to change our models and lifestyles.
Speaker 2:Steve, don't you love it when our guests give us the headline?
Speaker 3:I know it's amazing.
Speaker 2:So, nicolas, you just summed up everything, and summed up some points from my last question too, but I want to ask you this because, from the beginning, I've just picked up three words from your responses. One of them was imagination and imagining a great new imagination, and the second one was, of course, the great narrative. And the third one is now sincerity. So, when we combine all of these together, I would like to ask you about inclusion too, because you mentioned that inclusion is the key here. So how inclusive can a great narrative be? Because when we create great narratives, we usually, as human beings, tend to impose them. So, without being imposing, how can this great narrative be responsible, regenerative and inclusive for this new imagination of us all?
Speaker 4:inclusive. It is regenerative. If you talk about regenerative communication, I think it's the term regenerative communication. I've heard about it already, but I think it's. I think it's pure marketing. I'm not very comfortable with the term. I prefer to keep it confined to its historical universe, its agriculture, because agriculture can be regenerative from the point of view of ecosystems. I'm not sure communication can do that. I'm already not very comfortable with the term regenerative when it comes to regenerative business models, so I'm even less comfortable with the term of regenerative communication. I think that communication can be inclusive. I think communication is, above all, contributory but not regenerative. You know, in CSR communication there are two dimensions to consider the transition. Communication and this is, I think, what we do the more From this point of view, communication can accelerate the integration of the ecological transition into business models. This is our purpose. So this is what you do every day, this is what drives CDAs on a daily point of view. Communication can accelerate a cultural transition in companies, which is necessary for an operational transition in the company's businesses and value chain. And as well, communication can be responsible as well. We come from that at the beginning.
Speaker 4:Communication industry also has a major impact on the environment. Responsible communication is an ongoing process aimed at reducing the company's impact on the environment, because communication is guilty of that as well. Large companies are now committed to reducing the carbon footprint on their activities, but all operational departments, including communication departments, are called to play their part in this work of measuring and managing the carbon trajectory. But communication teams, like in other departments mainly they are lost. You know, when it comes to this subject, it's too technical and far from their original quest for business performance, you know. So we also help to do this in defining responsible communication strategies and carbon roadmaps for communications can do, but the um.
Speaker 3:One thing that struck me I'm so glad you said that about regenerative communications, because I don't know about you, but here in the uk and people are, um, using regenerative um in all sorts of different ways. It's quite funny. It's so fashionable at the moment. It's like, oh, we're a regenerative property company and, oh, we're seeing regenerative capitalism. It's like, oh, for god's sake, it's about agriculture, it's about growing, it's about soil health. It's not about whether you're building regenerative buildings or not.
Speaker 3:Anyway, that's not my point. My point was you talked there, um, about the impact that you can have on the culture of an organization. This is our almost our final question. But the other thing I'm really conscious of is that we've been working for 20 years together on um, sustainability and and we we have a situation, I think, in in the world, where we've had economic shocks, we've had pandemics, we've had many things that have been competing for people's attention and people's emotions, and and and I think we need to continue to fight to make sure that culture change isn't just inside the companies that you work with, but we are contributing to a cultural change in society and so, from your experience in particular, sustainability is something that we need to continue to sell to people and make sexy.
Speaker 4:So, from your practice, practice what makes sustainability sexy I don't know what makes sustainability sexy, but you know it's not. Sustainability cannot be sexy the same way to the same people. So maybe the last point to mention is and that is absolutely central in behaviour change is to get people to understand their skills and their role so they can adapt their role to the situation. And so, first, what we need to work on is the feeling of competence. We all have a role to play in sustainability. Then, taking action you know we have to.
Speaker 4:As communications experts, we have to tailor the message to the right stakeholders. What I mean is that all people only feel responsible for an area in which they know they are competent. So giving the wrong responsibility to someone is more anxiety provoking than the climate issue itself provoking, but the climate issue itself. So we have to adapt a narrative, even a great narrative, to audiences. We cannot send out the same message to everyone, and to drive the change, there are as well stages to consider. It has to become accessible, it has to become acceptable rather than a huge task to be tackled.
Speaker 2:So what I hear is give people back the power. So, nicolas, final question Our network, as you know, is ironically called Do Not Smile, because we need to make sustainability a subject that brings happiness into the world. So what object, place or person always makes you smile?
Speaker 3:My child, my child of, of course, everything. You're so cute, nico. Thank you very much. If we were in the same place I'd have to give you a big hug now and you, of course.
Speaker 4:I miss you guys.
Speaker 2:I hope people listening to our podcast realize there's a whole lot of love in the dns network yes, there is and there will be more, and we will grow with our listeners and with our clients and with sustainability world. Okay, you want me to say that right?
Speaker 3:exactly. Well listen, nico. Thank you so much for joining us. I know you've got to fly off to Paris right now, absolutely On my bike. It's been really good talking to you. Oh, very good, it's been really good I've been on your bike. It's a scary experience. It's been really good talking to you, finding out the grand narrative, and really exciting to hear about CDS growing to become a global force for change, thank you very much.
Speaker 4:Have a lovely day.
Speaker 2:Thank you, nico, and thanks to everyone who has listened to our Good Guys podcast, brought to you by the Do Not Smile network of agencies.
Speaker 3:And make sure you listen to future episodes where we talk to more amazing people like Nico about how we can work together to create a more sustainable future. So see you soon, damla, see you soon Bye.
Speaker 2:Bye.
Speaker 4:Nico Bye.
Speaker 1:Good Geist, a podcast series on sustainability Hosted by Damla Özlüer and Steve Connor, brought to you by the DNS Network.
