GoodGeist
A podcast on sustainability, hosted by Damla Özlüer and Steve Connor, brought to you by the DNS Network. Looking at sustainability issues, communications, and featuring global guests from a wide variety of sectors such as business, NGOs and government.
GoodGeist
How to Escape from the Hero Trap, with Thomas Kolster
In this episode we're talking to Thomas Colster, the visionary behind 'Goodvertising', who shifted from traditional advertising to fervently advocating for sustainability and published a genre-defining book of the same name in 2012.
Thomas recounts the frustration leading up to that first book, ignited by the inertia surrounding the 2010 Copenhagen climate summit. Discover his perspective on the value of human-centric leadership and empowering individuals to effect change - the topic of his second book 'The Hero Trap'.
We also talk about optimism, the UN Sustainable Development Goals and, of course, the things that make Thomas smile.
Follow GoodGeist for more episodes on sustainability, communications and how creativity can help make the world a better place.
Good Geist, a podcast series on sustainability hosted by Damla Özler and Steve Connor, brought to you by the DNS Network.
Speaker 2:Hello, hello everyone, you are listening to Good Guys, the message on sustainability which is brought to you by the DNS Network, the global network of agencies dedicated to making the world a better place. This is Damla from Mira Agency, istanbul, and.
Speaker 3:This is Steve from Creative Concern in Manchester. This podcast series explores global sustainability issues, how they're communicated and what creativity can do to make positive change happen.
Speaker 2:So in this episode we're going to talk to our good friend and long-standing DNS member, mr Goodvertising himself, Thomas Colster. Thomas is on a mission to make advertising put people and planet first. He is a keynote speaker, c-suite advisor and sits on more than a few awards panels.
Speaker 3:So Thomas is the founder of Goodvertising, the agency which takes the name of his first book, which in 2012, we'll come back to this in a minute Thomas mapped out the landscape of advertising that could make a difference, and the latest book is the Hero Trap we're going to get into that as well where he takes a tough line on brands, talking about purpose but perhaps not doing as much as they could to back that up. So, thomas, thanks for taking some time to talk to us both.
Speaker 3:Dan and Steve it's such a joy to see you again, and to all of you out there listening, we really need desperately agencies who stand up for change. So let's get into the conversation, I guess Excellent. So we always like to start, though, thomas, with a bit of backstory. So before we go into the whole post-purpose world, let's talk about you. Are you a poacher turned gamekeeper? Are you a mainstream ad man who's seen the light? How did you come to be doing what you do today?
Speaker 4:You know, I think at the moment I'm just a frustrated ex-advertising guy. To be honest, I've lost a little bit of optimism I had when I wrote my first book back in 2010, which was published in 2012, which was basically sparked by the inaction around the climate summit we hosted in Copenhagen. Today, you know, more than a decade later, I mean, what are we seeing? We aren't really seeing the change, Unfortunately. I think we're sort of like in a goldfish mode. We're sort of swimming around in a little bowl and hoping things are getting better, but nobody's really actually taking those long-term decisions that's needed, so we're stuck in the short term. So at the moment, I'm probably wearing a lot of different hats, but the one thing I'm trying to keep up is optimism at the moment.
Speaker 2:Okay, starting with a reference to Pink Floyd is always good Swimming in a fishbowl, but maybe we can go to somewhere more optimistic, because we need that all of us you, me, steve, everyone listening to us. So just close your eyes and go back in time and think of you 10 years ago writing that book. So do you think you started this trend, or was it a trend already?
Speaker 4:um, I I really wouldn't, you know, say that I started the trend. Well, what I think I did was I was a cover out at the time, running a sort of medium-sized traditional advertising agency, and, and you know, I just asked the simple question what can I do with what? I know? You know I work in advertising, you know how can I contribute to somehow, you know, solving this stuff, and so it might have been quite a naive thing, uh, at the time, and I think the opening line of the book was something right along the lines that you know, I hate 99.9 of advertising.
Speaker 4:So I think the first journey was sparked from a place of hate, and I think hate can be quite a powerful driver of change, and so I really felt that I love the people in the industry, I love the creativity. I just didn't really love the way that we were applying it at the time, and so, fundamentally, I just asked a very neat question, which was, you know, being an industry that today is about a trillion us dollars, you know, how can we use that force for something just slightly better? And and that was sort of starting point back in, back in, in in 2010 so I love that.
Speaker 3:I mean I. I often describe, when I tell people about what I do for a living, thomas, which, in particular for my family, took a good few years before they even understood what is it you do. And I and I always knew when I was, when I was at college, I always knew I was. I. I liked images and words put together in a really brief way, um, that grabbed people's imagination. I always knew I had to be in marketing and advertising, but I couldn't reconcile myself to what literally 99.9% of that world did. So I hear that hugely.
Speaker 3:So before we get into talking about where you are now, I'd like to pull back a little bit, and I know you've thought about this quite a lot, and I certainly have it. What I find really interesting is that if you look back through time in the history of the advertising world there, there have kind of always been people doing this kind of stuff. You look back at howard gossage in san francisco. You look at toscani doing all that crazy shit with benetton when he did all that. I mean, there has always been a strand of advertising these outliers, these people going against the grain. It's fascinating, isn't it? Do you agree that it's always been there in some way.
Speaker 4:I mean I still look back at some of the early United Colors and Benetton stuff, the Oliveros and Scala stuff, and it still blows my mind how great, how bold it is, especially in a time where I think most brands approach sustainability, purpose and these topics as more as a trend rather than actually wanting to change something. I think it's been there. I remember in writing and researching for the first book, it was difficult to actually find a lot of good examples and we actually came to the point that wait a moment, what to do Because we were running out of great examples, and so we actually ended up integrating a lot of great work from nonprofits because in some ways that's where the whole thing started was from the world of nonprofits understanding social issues, environmental issues, and even a lot of folks I know in this space actually came from the nonprofit world. So either maybe from a corporate comms world or nonprofit world, and sort of said, I found a new home.
Speaker 4:And I think for me I agree with what you're saying, steve, that I think advertising for a lot of people was a home for the misfits with creative ambitions, and even today I still feel that a lot of those folks going into advertising didn't actually go into advertising because they wanted to grow brands, necessarily, or drive the world of consumption or add to some distant shareholders profits.
Speaker 4:I think they just did it because they loved what they you know what creativity had to their lives, and for me, that's what brought me into the industry as well. I loved writing. I found a place where I could write and a bunch of folks around me that was a lot of fun to hang with, and some clients who sometimes but to be sort of few and in between leaders who decided to do this like and it's erotic, and it was just down here, and some of these folks now has just become what marketing is worse that it's just an embrace of a trend and that very rarely goes well, and especially because sustainability can't be a trend because it's a long-term endeavor and so if you treat it like a trend, uh, you're going to fail miserably I know that we started a little bit grim and, uh, why isn't anything changing?
Speaker 2:and I do know that when you dream of change and you, when you work for it, you really want it to happen very quickly. But I also know that social changes does not happen very quickly. So 10 years, or not even 50 years, 60 years one person's life is nothing actually. It's just a glimpse of time. And when you were talking with Steve at the moment, I just thought that, okay, but something has changed. I mean, like a century ago, child labor was the norm and now you can't even speak about it. Okay, it still goes on somewhere in the world and we are still fighting against it, but still it's not the norm anymore.
Speaker 2:So that means that gives me the hope that we are going to change. The only thing that I don't know that if we do have enough time to make that change happen. But that brings me to where you are at the moment. So this week, as always, you are in another glamorous location, thomas, but this time at the UN Global Compact Summit in Mexico City, talking about the Sustainable Development Goals, which gives us the frame of change. Actually, not only the green world, not only the greenwashing or green hushing, but a change that covers everything, every right to live better with all ourselves. So what did you feel there? What's going on at the moment, and do you think we will have enough time to change? That's my question.
Speaker 4:I think we talked about Pink Floyd just before. I think let's talk about ACDC and Highway to Hell just before. I think let's talk about ACDC and highway to health. And you know, antonio Guterres, the UN Secretary General, just recently said you know, we are the highway to climate, health, and, and and and even more so, actually said and encourage the advertising industry to get the act together and stop advertising for fossil fuels, and he did that in a sort of a positive way, also reminding us that as an industry, we actually came together. We can decide whether we did or not on tobacco.
Speaker 4:And so, being in Mexico City, obviously for me it's the first time I was there me, it's the first time I was there and it obviously opens my eyes towards the sort of how social issues is sort of interlinked with climate issues, which makes a lot of these conversations even tougher. I mean, when we look at where we are with the goals, it's also pretty depressing, just to put it mildly, because we're halfway towards 2030 and we're only about delivering on 12% of the goals and, to sort of put that into perspective, it's kind of like would any of us leave our home with only 12% power on our mobile phones? We probably wouldn't. So we're in a desperate place. To be honest, there are obviously some places where we see more progress than others, but what, what for me, was really important to leave the Mexican audience with, was this sort of sense of urgency that you know we're stuck. We're stuck in a in a. We're stuck in this modus operandi where it's all about short-term profits and obviously we've been through a recession and so it's very, very difficult for any leader to prioritize the longer-term change.
Speaker 4:And so one of the things I mentioned was sort of a lot of systemic stuff that's happening that, first of all, ceos aren't sitting in the chairs for very long anymore, so it's not a legacy effort that you're doing as a CEO. We see the same with CMOs. I mean, I read some depressing news from the UK where I think the average CMO is in her or his seat for about 18 months. How are we going to see any long-term change in terms of sustainability, if that's the sort of timeframe? Another thing, because you are right, dan, I think there are things that are progressing, and I know that a lot of people in the degrowth movement are always saying you know, why are we talking about growth at all?
Speaker 4:But the challenge is obviously when a mass, a big part of the population in Mexico, is living for only below 5,000 pesos, which is about 600 to 700 euros, how are you going to open up their eyes towards not aspiring towards getting a car or a washing machine or television? And so that makes these conversations really hard In my part of the world. I mean we are wasteful. You know we should be cutting back, we should be thinking twice about how we use our resources, but what are the messages we can bring to the people in Mexico City? It's such a disheartening challenge that we're faced with right now.
Speaker 3:There is always, thomas, I'm sure you're an avid listener of the podcast, but, in case you've missed any of our episodes, there is usually a point about 75% way through the podcast where we have to question global capitalism. So thank you for being completely on target and doing that moment and mentioning ACDC, which will make Damla very happy. Um, anything involving too many guitars brings me out in a rash, but I think it's absolutely fine. Um so, on an optimistic bent, I think we should try and let's get there, let's let's make this, let's turn that smile into something that we can all share.
Speaker 3:Let's talk about the hero trap, thomas, and I've noticed in both the talks you've been giving and the hero trap and some of your commentary online, that you really are steering into that space of leadership. What it means, what does it mean to be a leader in this space? I think that's really interesting. I think it's really exciting that you're going in that space. If people had to have sort of two or three takeaways from the hero trap on what it tells leaders to do to make this happen, what should those takeaway messages be?
Speaker 4:I think the first thing I realized a while back was that change is difficult, as we keep talking about, and so I had to ask myself where does change come from and when? We can't rely on governments, because they change all the time every three to four years on the UK, every time we change underwear. We can't rely on governments. Can we rely on corporations and brands to create change? Not necessarily. Can we rely on corporations and brands to create change? Not necessarily. So we have to rely on ourselves for our own capacity to draw change. And so I wanted to create a different type of model that actually took a human-centric and life-centric approach to change and looked at psychotherapy, coaching and those disciplines to come up with a different model. And the model I came up with was a different type of way of looking at leadership, because, as we talked about earlier, in the early days there was very few leaders that actually stood up for this, but suddenly there was a lot of brands talking about this. It's just become, you know, when we can suddenly talk about sustainable aviation fuel and sustainable concrete, we know we're going in the wrong direction. So, when every company was talking about purpose, I just asked myself the question so who can I trust who have actually created change in my life? And so I put change at the very heart of this and said don't put yourself as the hero when you are brand or when you're a CEO, but rather think about how you can change each and every one of us into the heroes of our lives, because that's where I think we can ultimately sort of bridge this intention action gap. There's so many of us, and even now, when we have less money, that needs that help, that needs that little push in the back, and so I think brands just need to start talking about 2050, 2030, and all the stuff that they want to change and actually empower and enable that change. It's so like I get so incredibly frustrated when I go into a supermarket, and it's not easy on a day to day basis, it's not easy to do that right choice. So, if brands are serious about that and if leaders are serious about that, lower the barriers. Think about how you can make it easy, not more expensive, and still deliver a good quality product. That's that's. That's that's what we need right now. So that's the first key takeaway it's really stop pitching yourself as a hero and turn everybody else, or turn everyone else into the hero of their lives.
Speaker 4:The second one for me, especially at this point in time, is really sort of you know, making changes, enabling change. I think a lot of stuff I look at at the moment is let's try and remove the value add, the mall high grounds, and say how can we, as a company, deliver something where it's just about price, quality and convenience? So, not making it about saving the world, but just back to those basic principles, because all my years in marketing have taught me that those three things still work. And each and every time I've seen a brand push this sort of value add thing, it becomes a hero trap as well, because what happens is when people aren't willing to pay that extra price, why should we support this product range that's caught back on it? And we've seen that now the last two to three years, even in a country like denmark.
Speaker 4:That's, that's, uh, that's that actually still has gone through the crisis pretty well, but, but things like organic produce has gone down for the very first time. Uh, so, so, so we have to rethink about how we do these things, and especially also because I feel we need everyone on board and it shouldn't just be for the ones who can afford buying into sustainability, or who can afford not to buy chocolate that's been made without child labor. It needs to be for everyone, and so that, I think, is an important thing to rethink at the moment. So those are kind of two of the sort of main points I would say at this time I'm really focused at.
Speaker 3:Right Back to you in a second, dan. Just one thought from me on that, thomas, and it is that image of the CEO setting a 2030 or a 2040 target and the trap in that as well, because I was recently doing a workshop with some school kids on some sustainability strategy stuff and and it was such a poignant moment where I was playing back all these things around clean air by 2030. We're going to be net zero by 2035. And this kid, really smart kid, just said to me why do you people make everything so far away? Why does it take so long to make this change happen? And I thought good on you, I'm good on you. You said what is what's happening now? What's happening next year, never mind 2030, it's like I, I, I.
Speaker 4:I often use this stupid analogy that you know, if I, if I come back to work and I take my girlfriend being together with another guy, obviously I get super angry. I'm like, honey, what are you doing? And then she says to me Thomas, you know, I promise to be a little bit more faithful every year towards 2030. You know, you know we wouldn't accept that. And so I think it's this idea that that these brands think that they're still so almighty and, yes, in many aspects they do control things like distribution, etc, etc but what they forget is that people do have a choice, and what I'm finally seeing right now, as every week we are fortunately have a crisis where people are dying in floodings, etc. Even here in Mexico, a couple of people died last week. We saw Patronile and Brazil being on fire two weeks ago, so it's happening on a weekly basis. So you have to ask yourself at one point, as a brand and as a company, as the CEO, you know how will people look at you when the change that you talk about is a decade away, because what they need is that change to happen right now. And I think back to your point, damian, about change and social change. I do think that we're on the curve of people having had enough, and I think we see that, unfortunately, in the political space as well.
Speaker 4:Okay, the Green Party's gone back in Europe, which is very, very unfortunate. It's just people running getting us around and seeing all this stuff. They don't know what to do. They need to do something, and then there's some people, unfortunately on the right wing side of things, that sell them this idea of a world untouched, a world that was how it used to be, and it's a very, very easy narrative to sell, whereas the world that we're selling is a much more difficult world and I think we put in ourselves, unfortunately, to sort of sell a world where you, uh, have to cut back on things, where it's not as easy, where you have to think about difficult things as opening your borders or maybe not opening your borders and all these very difficult topics. I think it's really our chance in the community to and that's probably the third part of the message in the hero trap is how do we get back to telling better narratives, how do we tell narratives that are inspiring, aspirational, about sustainability, because we really need to paint a beautiful picture for that.
Speaker 2:Those kids in school that you met steve, that they can buy into that, they, they can see, that they can envision, because, as I said, even now I'm I'm actually getting a bit frustrated, uh, and and that's that's not good it's almost a couple of things about what you said, uh, first, yes, people are running around like headless chickens and they want to change things and they can't, and they're very frustrated about a lot of things, and they're right to be frustrated. But in all the world's written history we do know that if there isn't a leadership driving that frustration, and if there isn't a leadership driving that frustration, and if there isn't a very, very organized political ideology driving that, masses tend to go with the far right. So this is one thing, but on the other hand, you said that it is a very easy narrative to sell the far right. But on the other hand, I was just thinking that all the monotheist narratives around the world I mean Judaism, christianism, muslims they all have the narrative to share, to consume less, to be more aware about that. That is the big narrative, not the ones that uh fight with each other, but the big narrative.
Speaker 2:So maybe it is not that hard to sell it, but we have to, as you said, uh, go back to basics and you opened the way to my last question. Actually, thank you very much for doing that, because this is the year when half of the world is voting in elections and there's a lot of talk about truth, fake news, the future of democracy in the face of populism. How does all this connect with advertising, do you think? I mean, do marketers and advertisers have a role to play in protecting the truth and the democracy or selling the good narrative?
Speaker 4:I think there's two things to what you just said. You know, I kind of agree with you that you know, for me, and why I still believe so wholeheartedly in sustainability, is that it's a narrative about what actually makes us happy. You know, we can go down the road and piss in our pants and think that this world that existed once upon a time will bring us joy and happiness. It's not, you know. You know, covid, for me even, was a really good life lesson in terms of understanding that the best things in life aren't things, that what actually brings happiness in the long term is a sense of community, uh, it's a sense of, uh, uplifting each other, because when we all lift each other up, we're not faced with crime, we're not faced with poverty, we're not. You know so. So we need to get back to sort of that poor idea about what makes us happy. I think we're.
Speaker 4:Advertising is at a critical turning point. Is that as an industry? I think we lag real leadership in any sort of way? I think each and every time we're so trend-focused and nobody actually sits down and asks the big questions like what do we want to do as an industry? I saw it when it came to social media. Nobody actually really took a stance on what social media should be doing in our lives or what the internet should be delivering. The same thing with AI. Right now, we sort of take a bit of a hands off approach and think that this is going to go well. It's kind of like a zebra giving birth to a lion. You know How's the zebra gonna raise this lion? And I think the same thing goes with sustainability that we sort of just treat it at this sort of trend. We don't really sort of take any sort of we sort of just treated at this sort of trend. We don't really sort of take any sort of global, united. Look at what the industry could or should be doing. You know, if you look at lawyers, for example, lawyers have a code of conduct. If you don't live up to that stuff, you're getting kicked out as an industry. There's so many things we could do in this space that wouldn't cost us anything.
Speaker 4:I think a lot of people at the moment wrongly believe that we're just fueling consumption. I think the tools that we're applying are much bigger than just that, and I feel, unfortunately, that we're already in a talent crisis. A lot of people don't want to work in advertising, and fairly enough, because in some ways, if you think about it, working as an oil executive is a bit more of a sort of clean-cut narrative than working advertising in some ways, you know, at least I go to work, people know what I'm doing, and advertising, you know so, as an industry, even though we are maturing, and even though I just came back from can lines, the biggest advertising festival, two weeks ago, and even though I did see some exciting conversations there, what I'm fundamentally lacking is for us to get together and actually take a stance. And all of this because I think that actually the brands want to do this as well, it's not just the creative agencies. I think a lot of brands would be more than happy with shared guidelines, level playing fields.
Speaker 4:You know, the thing is we can't cut back on this foolishness around packaging. You know why are we doing these big fucking bulk packaging stuff? Because people don't want to change. So you know a very concrete example, and I remember when Carlsberg did this little thing with getting rid of the six pack ring, which was a major issue apparently from for the consumer, then they did it and they put this little glue between the cans. That was too much for ordinary folks. They didn't know how to sort of untangle the cans and now golf, but had to cut back on that because people didn't want that small behavior change.
Speaker 4:So so I think we can do it. I think we could, as an industry, come up with simple, easy guidelines that wouldn't really do anything to any agency's profits. That probably would help all brands across the world engage with consumers on a much more level playing field than what we're doing right now, that we really need to apply very, very soon. Because when legislators legislate, they do that from a point where they don't have the knowledge about what it really takes to drive consumer change, and so a lot of that legislation might actually have the contrary effect, that it might actually not drive the change that it should be driving in the first place. And so I understand, if our industry doesn't take the lead on this, legislators will do it and we'll end up in a wrong place.
Speaker 3:Thomas, it's a point brilliantly made and, as I often say at moments like that, please, please, could you name me the one organization, company, brand that has gone out of business for embracing sustainability? There aren't any. It's crazy anyway, listen last question. So, um, as you know, our network is ironically called do not smile, because we know that we need to make sustainability the subject that brings happiness into the world. So final question is what object, place or person always makes you smile Very?
Speaker 4:good question, just to wrap up that little thing you put out there, steve, with the businesses. I work a lot with impact startups and everyday impact startups go to work, risking their fortune of the families, the future of the children, to try and generate a better way forward, and so for me it's just unfathomable that big business can't do the same, that they can't invest 0.5, 0.2% in doing the same. So that's just a little reminder on that. I think the little ecosystem of all these impact startups are doing amazing work and keep doing it and keep trying.
Speaker 4:There's quite a few things that make me happy at the moment, to be honest, even though we talk about all this pessimism etc. You know, I got a little son a couple of months ago. He puts a smile on my face and reminds me, obviously, of that 2030 is just around the corner, so that makes me happy. It does make me happy when I travel to Mexico City and I see bicycles you know, small chains that even in a city like this, bicycle culture is emerging. And I think, across my travels, if I'm in Africa, if I'm in South America and I have conversations with folks about sustainability, I see this as fundamentally turning into a movement and a bigger movement. Another thing that makes me smile is that, finally, our grandparents are becoming the new climate warriors because they want to safeguard the future of the grandchildren. So there's so many things that can actually make us smile.
Speaker 4:And to Dan's point as well, you know there are great things happening at the moment, and so, even though we feel that we have an extreme polarized world where everything seems to be black and white, I think one thing I always keep reminding myself about was when I walked in the streets of Copenhagen recently, the municipality, the city of Copenhagen, put up this billboard in the middle of the city just very, very sort of corporate text, like fonts, just blue poster that just says it's okay to disagree.
Speaker 4:And for me, that message is just such an amazing reminder of what's happening right now, in this time and place, that we don't have to agree on politics, but what we have to agree on is the fundamental principles of democracy, is that we need to get along, we need to preserve and make sure that this little, amazing blue marble that we're all living on is going to be preserved enough for our future generations. So lots to be happy about, lots to be cheerful about and, I think, the final point I probably would make is that I think we need to stop thinking that someone else out there is going to save us, that a corporation is going to save us, that our elected government leaders are going to save us. I think it needs to begin with ourselves and our capacity to drive change. We can do that very easily by buying products that we fundamentally believe in, the companies that we fundamentally believe in, and then I think we can actually hopefully do well in part and vote, vote, yes.
Speaker 3:We're voting this week in the UK. It's a big week. It's voting this week. Well, that has been a roller coaster of a podcast 30 minutes. I'm going to have to go and have a lie down in the dark room now. Damla, wrap us up. I can't take any more.
Speaker 2:So thanks to everyone who has listened to our good guys podcast, brought to you by the do not smile network of agencies and make sure you listen to future episodes.
Speaker 3:We will be talking to more amazing people about how we can work together to create a more sustainable future. So, thomas damla, see you soon. Bye, thank you. Thank you.
