GoodGeist
A podcast on sustainability, hosted by Damla Özlüer and Steve Connor, brought to you by the DNS Network. Looking at sustainability issues, communications, and featuring global guests from a wide variety of sectors such as business, NGOs and government.
GoodGeist
Who's Got the Cash, with Maria Adebowale-Schwarte
In this episode we talk to Maria Adebowale-Schwarte, the founding director of the Living Space Project, about her passion for sustainable placemaking. Our conversation covered the huge landscapes of environmental law, social justice, and the creation of shared spaces that knit communities together.
Maria shared with us her insights on the essential ingredients for successful placemaking – including respect, resources, and unwavering support – illuminating the path toward sustainable urban spaces where life thrives.
We also covered the roles that individuals and governments alike play in shaping social change and the importance of community engagement in housing and placemaking. We also talked quite a bit about the influence of Maria's mother, too!
Follow GoodGeist for more episodes on sustainability, communications and how creativity can help make the world a better place.
Good Geist, a podcast series on sustainability hosted by Damla Özler and Steve Connor, brought to you by the DNS Network.
Speaker 2:Hello, hello everyone, you are listening to Good Guys, the message on sustainability which is brought to you by the DNS Network, the global network of agencies dedicated to making the world a better place. This is Damla from Mirya Agency, istanbul, and.
Speaker 3:This is Steve from Creative Concern in Manchester. This podcast series explores global sustainability issues, how they're communicated and what creativity can do to make positive change happen.
Speaker 2:So in this episode we are thrilled to have our guest. We're going to talk to Maria Adebowale-Shuarte, who is the founding director of the Living Space Project. She has a background in inclusive urban placemaking, collaborative participation, place-led philanthropy and funding research and urban development. Wow.
Speaker 3:I know, brace yourself, maria. And the biog goes on, so I could talk about the London Sustainable Development Commission, the Social Value Regeneration Committee that you chair, your TEDx talk which is essential viewing for anybody listening to this, and your work at the University of Oxford. My goodness me, you've been busy. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us too oh, it's a pleasure, it really is.
Speaker 4:I'm looking forward to the conversation actually. Yeah, welcome. I'll stay candid with my answers, but, um, yeah, let's see. Let's see how it goes.
Speaker 2:That's best. That's best. So let's start with your journey a little bit, because on this podcast, we love to hear about people's personal journeys. So, maria, what led you to working at the intersection of placemaking, communities, sustainability yeah, it's an interesting one.
Speaker 4:How long have you got? Um, I think I put it down first to my mom. So, um, my mom is this wonderful woman who was always talking about looking at the planet and people and, um, we were just brought up around. You know, it's important to make sure everything is fair for everyone, and these hierarchies actually are problematic and when we see that there are inequalities, that everyone, whatever their age, has some opportunity hopefully to make that change. And so I think it's always really been about, I guess also as a kid, this thing has been unfair, and especially when you're often the only black kid in school. In that particular school, although I had very good friends who weren't, I experienced things that really, I think a lot of people didn't see around inequality, around the way we spoke to people, um, the lack of broader perspectives, uh, and also, you know, with mum and my siblings, it has always been about, you know, what's our role in this? Sure, we can definitely get well pissed off with some people about how they operate as organizations, as individuals, but actually, what can we do to make the world a better place? And that's always what I focused on, and it seems to me that if you're having that journey and you're trying your best to make that happen, um, you have ridiculous number of things that you do in your lifetime because they're also interconnected.
Speaker 4:You know, I think what did I start off in, um? Actually, I wanted to be a lawyer, um, and I did want to work on environmental law and I did. I did a lot around social justice and other lawyers with other communities. Communities have been absolutely crucial in navigating the resources that's required or even the lack of space. You know, there's these massive tables of the hyper-lawyer people that think they have the answers and yet they don't listen to the people who are living through some of those circumstances. So, yeah, that's kind of where I am. It's communities people place. It's environment you choose the title. Really, it's social justice, it's social change and equality, social value. They're all connected. If we do it right, it's not just the one thing to make it happen happen, yeah, and picking back against the hoi polloi.
Speaker 3:Hey, maria, come on. Um, yeah, I've got. So I've got a question for you. So you've probably talked and thought more about this sort of nexus of sustainability and placemaking sustainable placement more than anybody else that I've I've talked to and so could you share with us sort of two or three headline themes of what sustainable placemaking means for you?
Speaker 4:yeah, I can, um.
Speaker 4:So for me, placemaking is a couple of things and placemaking is is, it's a I was was going to say intellectual, but it's not. It's it's a gathering of people's thoughts and the respect of those thoughts and it's providing and supporting continuously the resources required to make good placemaking, social justice, social value happen. And, um, good placemaking, social justice, social value happen. And I did write a very small book called the Placemaking Factor and for me it was the reason why I did. That is A. I was incredibly lucky to get some support from the Esme Fairburn Foundation at the time and pretty much the best part of two years' experience of looking at the whole sort of conversation around placemaking and people and inclusivity, and it just struck me that you know, out of all those things, there were three major things that come through if I'm thinking about doing good placemaking. One was focusing on the social, the economic and the environmental, and I mean I can go through them and in fact I will. You can always go oh enough now.
Speaker 4:So let's start with the social bit. When we're young or when we're old, even throughout our lives, we're talking about building friendships and social networks. We're talking about collective participation, even if it's just going down the road with your friend and feeling okay about that. It's about shared spaces, shared spaces and open data. The shared spaces is really important because I think we don't do that very well, especially when we start bringing in these ideas about who's better than the other person because of the color of their skin, how much money they own, you know which country they were born in, etc. And I've not been dismissive of that. But what I'm saying is you know, there is a collaboration around humans about how we are and what we want, um, and the one thing that I feel really well not the ones very many, but one of the things in which I have this conversation around placemaking is fully the conversion model. You know it is the social, economic and environmental, but it's not this thing that you just put on your T-shirt. It's also about tackling really hard problems and poverty and inequality, and that has to be part of places, and I know it is because of people I talked to and also have been in similar circumstances as a child.
Speaker 4:And then the other one is around economics. So it's um shared economies. We shouldn't have economies where it works for some people and not for others, which we're we're having to deal with now? Um, you know, just generally, just look at how things are going right now across the globe, but also in the uk and also in the cities that we work in, there isn't that kind of economic fairness. There is a problem around um not everyone having access to security and training and entrepreneurship and co-ownership of assets. You know why is that? And also about community and business support um, there are so many people that I've met in local communities, both in london, outside of london, you know, with just so many ideas um, things that they want to do, can do, will do. Um. Revitalizing neighborhoods is another one, you know, because actually we are building new spaces, we are putting up new homes. What do they look like? Who have they been co-designed with, if anyone? Um, and there are some really good institutions out there who are looking at social value and the way in which they look at building neighborhoods, um, etc.
Speaker 4:And then there's the whole environment piece. I mean, I I was interviewed um for a conversation about the environment and again it was a question about what do you think about this and how long have you been doing it? Well, I missed the bit about how long we've been doing it because it's like embarrassingly long, um, but it just seems to me we're going round in circles. So we're looking at climate change, resilience, again looking at natural resource conversations, public parks, public spaces absolutely crucial, because at the moment we have spaces where people do not feel comfortable in and, whilst it's young people that get actually criminalised, it's quite often the young people that are having the problems with the fact that we haven't designed things that work for them and anyone. Actually it tends to be this kind of thing that looks good on paper, looks good for people who are in certain places which are safer, may feel safer.
Speaker 4:And then the other one is we seem to forget about, unless we're focusing on environment all the time, I think we're still forgetting biodiversity and wildlife. I mean, you can remember when we used to talk about that all the time, and I know lots of people say, well, we still are talking about that and I'll say, yeah, you are. And they'll still say, and we're doing projects. I'm going, yeah, that's great, but let's keep doing it. But let's not feel like this we're there yet and actually I've decided I think it, we're never going to be there really, and so it's like guys, roll up, roll up your sleeves, put the time in and listen to people that you haven't been listening to before, and don't just talk about environment, economic and social, as these separate things. That was a very long answer to your question no, it was.
Speaker 2:It was brilliant actually, because it just opened my mind. We have been talking about sustainability, communication and sustainability in general in this podcast for over three months now and with all our guests, but also the talk of the town is always around sustainability and the headline is generally on. The greater narrative is this can't be sustained. But when you now put it in a different frame including inclusive places, justice for all, equality, and when we think of these, the question pops in my mind is think of these. The question pops in my mind is we can sustain a kind of society and not tackle but maybe mitigate the climate change, but this society and these ways or this system doesn't necessarily have to be equal for all, inclusive and so on, but it may be sustained. So the question is maybe it isn't what is sustainable and unsustainable. Maybe the question is what do we want to sustain as a species? What kind of a society, what kind of a future do we want to make happen? Is that so?
Speaker 4:I think you're absolutely right, it's futile unless we kind of do that. Um, I think that's. That's exactly right, actually it's. And then what? What actions do we take, um, and how significant of those actions, and do we have the right political pressure to make it happen? Because my experience is, what's happening is that a lot of the work that's been done is the people who have been impacted by really bad social value or sustainability, and even now, when I look back, there is still so much that needs to be done.
Speaker 4:Um, I think there's something about a sharing of economies, um, and some people might say, well, this is, you know, very leftist approach. Well, uh, as long as it's not a fascist approach or anything nasty, I think we do have to have new approaches, actually, which are quite difficult to deal with in the beginning, and the people that I've spoken to and communities that I've spoken to, you know, have a very strong understanding of how we do this at a local level, how we do it, how we actually work collectively, um, how do we work on solutions? Um, how do we work with experts? Because there are sometimes people who actually are really good at something they've been at it for decades, but the good. The good experts always know that there's always something else to learn. I'm always concerned when they get someone who doesn't listen about what other people are saying. So I think that's right. It's how do we do that? But I think lots of people are doing it, but they're not being resourced. Again, as I said before, it feels like there's work happening.
Speaker 4:So, even if it's building new spaces or designing in parks, it's something relatively recently that the organisations who are really thinking it through and willing to make changes are actually recognising that they can't deliver good homes and houses without the design of them anyway. As architects as well, but also as a developer, what is your moral and ethical compass? And I think there are some organisations that are doing that are really putting the time in. So, if I think about Univale with Amco, for example, some people know them as Westfield, as one of the Westfield centres, and there are others who are saying, look, how do we make this right? And they also see themselves as okay.
Speaker 4:We are a business, we make a profit, but we also are reliable and responsible for the people who work with us, the towns and cities in which we have our businesses, and so what we should be doing is also making sure this new collective happens by providing those resources, and I think that's quite rare. I think there's a lot of it's getting you know in the last 10 years, but I think we still don't do enough around that. I still don't think there's enough about this individual ownership of large-scale organizations about what they should be doing, and I know I don't want to kick them, you know, out of the room or anything and I know some of them feel because they're all individuals in these institutions and so whilst you might have loads of people saying that in an organisation, unless you can get the people at the top who make the final decision, then actually it's quite difficult for some developers, young people in that situation or older, to make those things happen.
Speaker 3:I don't think some of these things are leftists, though, maria, even though I'm actually perfectly happy being labeled leftist. You can call me leftist all day long and I'll have a big old smile on my face, but to me they're just common sense, aren't they? And it's kind of, it's kind of even crazy to to say that they're, they're left-leaning ideas, when actually they just make sense. But I've got a question for you, maria. Maybe it's because I'm a frustrated urban designer, I don't know, but on this podcast we talk quite a lot about the cities as living systems and the livability of cities and sort of nature, and I know you've thought a lot about this, haven't you? You touched on it already a little bit, but even the future of parks and what they mean is something that you've focused on. So what's your current take on the role of nature in the city?
Speaker 4:We're dead without it. Basically, we're dead without it. Basically, we're dead without it. It's recognising their value again, but it's also recognising that we can kill off a good environment and have them. If you look at some of the species that are disappearing, even the tiny little flies whatever it is butterflies we're seeing in the garden, because we're lucky enough to have one, the birds that we used to see at Christmas time now out, it's the strangest thing and less of them.
Speaker 4:So I think the thing about protecting the environment is there isn't any other answer than yes, we have to do that, I think, at a local level, and quite often this is it's local and it's also kind of something that happens countrywide how countries decide they do this or places. Unfortunately, some of the questions that we make about how do we protect species also comes down to actually what's the legal legislation around this. You know, um, and we know that actually, whilst certain governments depending on who it is and when they come in or out are all over this, you know we've had some really good governments who have been really good at the environment. I'll try to be um, because you know, sometimes it's it's because we we've actually explained this, as which you know as well in our past, it's just what happens is sometimes, if it works well, lots of time and money and thought put into protecting the environment and species environment and species and then suddenly, quite often actually, it's a change of government on individual in a very important role making the wrong decisions, and how we bring it back. I think we bring it back by again if it's buildings and development. I think there's a way in which we can be much stronger around buildings and development and around architectural design, making sure that that environmental piece is in anything that goes out, that environmental peace is in anything that goes out um, and also that it is. It's something which actually will make a difference.
Speaker 4:And so I you know I've spoken to quite a lot of people at different ages, and especially um, if people over the age of 60, or some people might call it the elderly. You know lots of people wouldn't like to be called the elderly, even if they are over 60, um, and they're basically saying well, you know, we can remember when there were these walkways with this and that, and they're right. And now, if you're lucky, there's a bench. The bench doesn't get looked after, it falls away after a while. You know, the nails start showing and then we start all over again. So if we're going to do this thing, we have to realise, yeah, it's expensive and it's not something you can just shove in a garden somewhere or the middle of nowhere, expect people to use it. And then you know, even if they do use it, suddenly it just doesn't work anymore because it's been rained on, it wasn't properly put together, et cetera. You know.
Speaker 4:So it's as I said, it's kind of this constant consistency and call to action around a broader thinking about how we do this and something about the morality as well. Do this, um, and something about the morality as well. I mean, is it really moral to have to not be protecting the environment? The environment's not just for us, it wasn't just for the people behind us, it's for the future.
Speaker 4:So if we're going right, actually there's not enough money, there's not enough money for this, there's not enough money for that, um, then well, you're basically putting a nice big cross next to the environment. You really are, and I know it sounds kind of like over the top, but the whole thing worries me, um, and I think it does most people. So how we do that is going to be a constant campaign with answers. You know being able to help but also, uh, being able to say this isn't working, and you know this is how we need to do it, and I guess this is why we have people who go out on the streets and, you know, are complaining not complaining actually, so it's the wrong word word entirely who are saying more needs to be done, more needs to be done on inclusion, more needs to be done on looking after the environment, more needs to be done on broader perspectives around this, more needs to be done on environmental justice has to keep happening.
Speaker 2:Steve, don't you love it when our guests just read our minds and drive the conversation to the question that we have in mind, even though it's not discussed before? Because, maria, I have a question for you and it was not in our initial notes, but you are talking about changing the regulations and the laws and bringing in new regulations with a place-based approach, tackling the climate crisis and the loss of biodiversity also again with a place-based approach, tackling with the very old habits and the system that produces inequalities, and doing all of these in an inclusive way, with lots of different stakeholders, and some of them are very powerful, like the development sector and so on, but also some vulnerable groups like the over 65 or the children, and so on and so on. So campaigning and communication plays a key role in this. So how do you use communication techniques to create a place-based but also inclusive approach to solve these problems?
Speaker 4:Okay, and there are two things. One is cash If I was making three. The second is cash, but, being serious, I guess the first one is how? If I was making free? The second is cash, but being serious, I guess the first one is how do you make it happen? It's like you you have a government that understands it, um, and you make it happen by making sure this has consistent resources. Also, some of it is about how we are as individuals and how we operate. You know even the way we treat another human being.
Speaker 4:If we were to wait only for government, I think government sometimes proves itself to be absolutely brilliant and amazing. You can get those times, as I said, where people can do things quite quickly if they want to. The problem is especially right now, and it seems for quite some time. This is not choosing any political particular organisation. I might do that with a drink afterwards.
Speaker 4:It's really actually about it's like we've got something wrong in politics at the moment, and probably always have, and again it's who's making the decisions for us, and so there's something we can do as individuals if we have been given the legal rights to, and that is the way we vote, and I know it seems like a bit of a silly response, but I think actually there are changes that can be made, certainly in the people that we bring in to a government, and I think there is also something about really challenging those individuals and organisations about what it is they promise to do and being able to hold them to that. But it's actually quite difficult because these roundabouts, you know, we have one political group at one point, then they go, et cetera. So I don't think I've answered your question. Tell me which bit I haven't answered and I'll try.
Speaker 2:Actually it was a very in-depth question, so I do understand that you're trying to cover all the layers and it has a lot of facets to it. But I was asking also about campaigning, and do you see good campaigns around place-based approach?
Speaker 4:I don't think I can use the title title, but I do see good campaigns around space and placemaking. Um, and those campaigns are quite often around housing, the lack of it and also how badly built they are. Um, when it's for people, um, when it's aimed at people on low, low incomes, that suddenly, uh, I mean that seems slightly getting better, but it feels like there's one beautiful space and place with parks for people, with cash. And then you look across the road, um, and suddenly you've got these buildings which were built many years ago, aren't being looked after anymore. I mean, we're living, you know, sitting in London here, and there are places, probably not just London, where you know people are saying there is mould in our houses. You know, we have no parks. We are 20 feet up, you know. I've got to get the kid into the push chair to bring them down. Um, the other children haven't got anywhere to go.
Speaker 4:So actually, yeah, they are maybe, you know, a little bit awkward, bit annoyed that no adults have created anything for them or with them. So there is this bit about I think it's there. There is this piece about who gets to do this and why, and it seems to be around. Well, who's got the cash, and that's not for all developers and it's not for all organisations or political groups or mayors and I'm not saying they're all like that at all but I just don't think that we we think about or do enough around the social change of buildings and what they look like, um, and how long, how long they stay, for I mean most of them, a lot, of, a lot of people I've spoken to that live in council homes. They're proud of their homes but deeply annoyed and actually quite upset that their homes just don't seem to have been given the same kind of resources.
Speaker 3:So, maria, I'm feeling a bit fired up. Actually. I feel like we need to get out there on the streets and demand change now. I'm always very close to being fired up, but you particularly have pushed me over the edge on this Friday afternoon when we're recording. So, listen, we've covered a huge amount of territory right the way through, from how you started on this journey, through to places and spaces and people and nature, which is amazing. So I'm going to wrap us up with one final question, um, which is our network of agencies, ironically called do not smile, because we think sustainability is something that needs to bring happiness in the world. So my final question to you, maria, is what object, place or person always makes you smile?
Speaker 4:oh gosh, that's so hard. I'm gonna get lots of people hate me when I don't know names, but I have to say my mom and um, she's just this wonderful person who has, um, showed us what it's like to be a person that looks after others. Um, she's witty um, and I just adore her, and she's been the most fantastic mum to me and my siblings.
Speaker 3:Wow, that's amazing. That's the best answer we've ever had. Actually, many of you just nailed it and actually, as I know at least I know one of your siblings another Adewale, and now I'm just thinking, wow, your mum must be a really quite impressive person. I think she might have to come on the broadcast actually, you know what?
Speaker 4:She'd probably bite your leg off to do that?
Speaker 3:Oh, maria, thank you Honestly. That's been such a brilliant conversation and, yes, I mean, I think we focused on some, you know, injustice and some things that should make us angry, but also loads of thoughts and solutions and ideas for the future, and that's exactly the right sort of balance we need, isn't it? So that's been brilliant. Damla, over to you.
Speaker 2:Well, thanks to everyone who has listened to our Good Guys podcast, brought to you by the Do Not Smile network of agencies.
Speaker 3:And make sure you listen to future episodes, where we'll be talking to more amazing people like Maria about how we can work together to create a more sustainable future. So, maria, damla, see you soon.
Speaker 4:See you, thank you, take care, bye, bye.
Speaker 1:Good Geist, a podcast series on sustainability Hosted by Damla Özler and Steve Connor, brought to you by the DNS Network.
