GoodGeist
A podcast on sustainability, hosted by Damla Özlüer and Steve Connor, brought to you by the DNS Network. Looking at sustainability issues, communications, and featuring global guests from a wide variety of sectors such as business, NGOs and government.
GoodGeist
Hydrogen – it's the Future, with Amer Gaffar
This week we go deep into the heart of green energy, with Amer Gaffar, the visionary director of Manchester's Fuel Cell Innovation Centre, as he recounts his two-decade love affair with hydrogen technology and tells us about starting out as a sustainability consultant trying to decarbonise a university, before becoming a standout advocate for hydrogen.
In this episode, Amer opens a window to the world of fuel cells, electrolyzers, and the myriad use cases of hydrogen. We also work our way through the colorful spectrum of hydrogen, from the prevalent grey to the environmentally friendlier green.
Follow GoodGeist for more episodes on sustainability, communications and how creativity can help make the world a better place.
Good Geist a podcast series on sustainability hosted by Damla Özler and Steve Connor, brought to you by the DNS Network. Hello, hello everyone. You are listening to the Good Guys, the message on sustainability which is brought to you by the DNS Network, the global network of agencies dedicated to making the world a better place. This is Damla, from Mira Agency, Istanbul, and.
Speaker 1:This is Steve from Creative Concern in Manchester. This podcast series explores global sustainability issues, how they're communicated and what creativity can do to make positive change happen.
Speaker 2:So in this episode we're going to talk to Amr Ghaffar, who is the director of Manchester Fuel Cell Innovation Centre, wow, and a sustainable energy professional with almost 20 years of experience in the sector. Amr is a passionate advocate for puke cell and hydrogen technology and has successfully built huge momentum in Manchester and the northwest around this area.
Speaker 1:So Amr was also part of the team that helped make Manchester Metropolitan University the number one, number one Ama greenest university in the People and Planet University League for three years, and he also founded the Greater Manchester Hydrogen Partnership, which I remember had a very groovy T-shirt and is currently working to develop a hydrogen fuel cell strategy for the Greater Manchester region. And Damlala last thing also recently, am has been working on a partnership with turkish colleagues. So, ama, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to damla and myself. Oh, no, thank you.
Speaker 3:So you know it's a pleasure. I've known, obviously I've known steve you for many, many years. It's absolute pleasure to meet damla and talking about the world of hydrogen and where we're going. It is a passion and it's what I've done for 10 years now so well, actually coming into its 11th year. So I originally started talking about it in 2013. So I mean in terms of sort of level of background, steve, I'm Steve Verykant. So that was part of a much wider and a very brilliant sustainability team at the university a much wider and a very brilliant sustainability team at the university. So I was brought to the university as a consultant in 2012. And I was. If I'm honest, I was only supposed to be here for three months, but along that path, I tried to install a hydrogen fuel cell into the campus building as part of its sustainability credentials, and that really started the journey for hydrogen, not just at the university but, I suppose, in a broader sense, in Greater Manchester.
Speaker 2:So can we say you were naturally born hydrogenic.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would say, because my name that everyone calls me nowadays is Mr Hydrogen, so I quite like that. So hydrogenic, I'll take that every day of the week.
Speaker 2:Great. So my question is before we fully immerse ourselves in this world, just hear from you a bit. What was the driving force behind this transition of your career?
Speaker 3:So over 20 years my world has revolved around sustainability in a broader sense. So looking at retrofit programs, looking at uh, solar pv, uh from an installation perspective, wind and again coming back to um, why the interest in hydrogen it really stemmed from. I thought it was just great technology. And then I try when, as part of the sustainability credentials, when you try and install a technology that isn't really in a commercial stage, you realize very, very quickly it's got huge, huge challenges. So that's really what sort of kick-started my journey into hydrogen um. But in terms of sustainability in the broader sense of working collaboratively with you know, people and many others over many, many years, we all know it's a huge challenge and until we kind of get to grips in true collaboration we're not going to get there, are we?
Speaker 1:Definitely not, emma, definitely not. Working together is key, um and sustaining optimism. So I've got a question for you about um, about the center, so we should go into a little bit of an explainer mode, I think, for people listening. So the center's focused on hydrogen fuel cells. Can you explain to us what they are and what potential they hold for the world?
Speaker 3:Yes, definitely. So. The centre was born to work on devices. So fuel cells are an electrochemical device, electrolyzers are an electrochemical device. So that's what predominantly our research team and people like myself work to develop, because they are going to be key to the hydrogen ambitions, not just in the UK but globally. And when we start talking about the colours of hydrogen, which I know we're going to get into green hydrogen is really only done through electrolysis.
Speaker 3:So what we tend to work on is the huge challenges that surround these devices. So materials, types, challenges, bringing down the cost to a level where they do start becoming more and more commercial. So the team very much work on multiple challenges around materials, both for the plates that hold the fuel cell together through to the material. That actually where most of the magic happens. So we have a huge testing facility within the centre where we test fuel cells of all different sort of scale and nature. So PEM fuel cells and solid oxide fuel cells I don't know if that's a bit technical, but in terms of PEM fuel cells it's just low temperature and solid oxide is high temperature. And then in terms of electrolysers, we test electrolysers again, again with the same sort of material challenges or we try and work with many, many businesses who are trying to understand what their role in the hydrogen value chain is going to be around these specific devices.
Speaker 3:But again, that's we just work on a very, very small sort of element of hydrogen and that's from a research perspective. That's what the center does, but the center because of the way it was created, um, and through support. From a research perspective, that's what the centre does. But the centre because of the way it was created and through support from the region, and I mean it was initially funded partly by the university and partly by regional development funding, so it very much is seen as a greater Manchester slash regional asset, which is not just conducting the research that we do within the centre with businesses and our research team. It's really about understanding what role hydrogen will play within a city region like Greater Manchester. And then now we're in a different sort of time where we have a dedicated hydrogen ambition for the UK. How does the work we do fit in with that national ambition and then more of an international dimension? We are now in a position where there's 52 global roadmaps, so it's really really moving at pace.
Speaker 2:So you've opened up the explainer mode and I will ask you to open up the simply explainer mode now for those our listeners, including me, who may be not very knowledgeable about hydrogen. How would you summarize the current wider global picture on its use, planned future developments and areas of innovation? What does it mean for us simple and humble people walking in the street?
Speaker 3:Okay. So let's understand that this is not new technology, as a starter. So hydrogen has been talked about for a very, very long time and even when I got involved with it 10 plus years ago, it was always 10 years away that this is now going to start to become commercial. The fundamental change that we're experiencing right now is there is a wraparound of policy support, which essentially means there's funding for these projects, so that always helps things. And to understand hydrogen's role in a net zero society, it's there essentially to support electrification, so primary use for hydrogen is to support those harder to obey areas that are very, very difficult to electrify. So steel manufacturing, cement manufacturing, heavy manufacturing in general wherever you use lots and lots of gas at high temperature as an example hydrogen's got a potential role to play. Now it's a bit more complex than that as well, because the demand for hydrogen is set to increase tenfold, leading up to 2050.
Speaker 3:But you know, this is a stat that I, you know when you mention this to people. This is not a new market, because we already use, as a planet, 100 million metric tons of hydrogen in many, many industrial processes, and the big challenge we've got there is that hydrogen is predominantly I'd say 90, well over 95 to 97 to 98 percent is produced from fossil fuels. Well over 95% to 97% to 98% is produced from fossil fuels. So we need to really create solutions that will generate hydrogen in a different way, which is low carbon or green. Green is ultimately what we want, but there is a transition period within the evolution of hydrogen where it means it has to be low carbon.
Speaker 1:So, ammo, I was going to ask you, just going back right at the start of that comment you made there, um, you said that it's always been 10 years away is and, um, I did want to get into that a little bit, which I remember, um, a good long time ago actually, um, my a book I read called the hydrogen economy, and it's this first big vision of of what, how hydrogen was going to transform the world. And then, and then it did kind of go off the boil. I felt like hydrogen stopped being talked about quite so much and the hype sort of calmed down a little bit and I I feel we're bouncing back to a position where people have got real appetite for investing in hydrogen, exploring it, with massive caveats and we'll come on to that in a minute about how it's generated. But where do you feel humanity, as I know it's a big picture thing, but where's humanity at in the sort of hype cycle of hydrogen?
Speaker 3:so I think, if we let's get over the hype side from from let's from a commercial perspective, let's start with the commercials now. So why it was always sort of 10 years away, but there was no investment behind it. So I mean, the same thing happened with multiple other industries wind, solar when they were first sort of kicking off the same to a. The same thing happened. I think hydrogen is a lot more complex than them because the value chain is so large. I mean, we're talking about the different uses and applications of hydrogen and the fact that this will have to be delivered ultimately by a pipeline, the place that it has in the investment community right now. Today, that stands at about $570 billion, with projects, with an investment decision as we lead out through to 2050, when most of these strategies really start working properly. We're talking trillions and trillions of dollars. So there's a different element. And what? For many, many years? Because we're not I'll go back to that initial point I made. We're not really inventing new technology, we're just improving existing technology. So the thought process behind hydrogen always being 10 years away is still the same? I don't think it is still.
Speaker 3:You know, most of the archetypes that exist in these roadmaps start, or started from, around the early 2020s. So they'd say that between now and 2030, we're going to start building the momentum by from 2030 to 2050. We're going to really accelerate our pace. And again, the difference today is that you have investment, you have policies. So it was only in 2021 that the UK developed its first ever hydrogen strategy and that's already gone through a number of variations. So the initial ambition for the UK was by 2030, we want to deliver and we're going to commit to delivering five gigawatts of low carbon hydrogen.
Speaker 3:Then the energy security strategy came out and said no, actually that's not ambitious enough. We want to deliver 10 gigawatts of hydrogen by 2030. And now, if you think about it, we're in 2024. That's quite still ambitious in the next six years that we're going to get to 10 gigawatts. So we really have to recognize that that's where a lot of the investment is coming in from, because what is also helping is that I mean, we work with you know we work with a lot of different organizations who are trying to electrify what they can, but there are just some things you can't electrify or there's some things that you shouldn't electrify. So it has to have a role. So you're trying to find the alternative to my knowledge, you know we the best sort of solution out there, you know, which is going to drive our energy security ambitions and create a whole new economy, is technology that we're we're talking about right now is hydrogen fuel cell technology brilliant, and so I'm going to hand over back to Damla in just a sec.
Speaker 1:She's going to get on to how do we tell the story of hydrogen, which of course I excellent, but last thing from me on this one is that those road maps that you talked about and the different use cases of hydrogen Just very briefly, before nothing, if you be fun, I think, amma, if you could just share with us. Are there any examples of hydrogen innovation in the 10 years that you've been really deeply in this that are just absolutely bonkers that you've encountered and you've gone? What on earth are they trying to do now with hydrogen? Because we get the sort of the battle storage piece. But what are the more outlying use cases that you've come across?
Speaker 3:I mean so again being the background that I've come from, steve in from a consultant world, I've always looked at which are the areas that are being invested in and then sort of work backwards. So we, if you think about how, when I say this, this value chain is quite large. It's how you produce it and convert it and then use it in applications like fuel cells, how you move hydrogen around, how you store hydrogen. There's transport applications to consider, there's non-transport applications to consider, and then there's a lack of a whole range of support services like health and safety training. Are we delivering the right sort of skills within higher education institutions or even fe colleges to facilitate, even attempt to facilitate, hydrogen economy?
Speaker 3:I think the confusion sometimes around hydrogen as an energy vector lies in the primary use. What's the driver for hydrogen? So your driver for hydrogen again, with my mindset of trying to look at what areas are being invested in, for me industry makes complete sense and I think that's the primary should be the primary driver for 90 plus percent of all hydrogen projects. Eventually you might prove the case for other uses, but I don't think you should start with those other use cases because your project will likely fail and you will not get the subsidy that you require. So there have been some crazy ideas around hydrogen, as you well know. But I think, in terms of um, even if we take hydrogen's role in domestic heat, you know, let's let's talk about that one, because that's the one and again, coming back from that turkey trip, that provides negative connotations around technology like this. Because what's happened in the uk is we've attempted to do a couple of trials around hydrogen for domestic heat and they've been cancelled or they've been delayed. There are there are other trials happening later on in this decade which might prove the case eventually for why you should have hydrogen domestic gas network.
Speaker 3:But that's what people globally see. And then they say, well, no, the uk has just cancelled all its hydrogen projects and that that's not the case. You know very recently we've had. So the subsidy model that the UK has adopted is something called the hydrogen business model Now and that's something called hydrogen allocation round. That's awarded 11 projects, quite substantial funding, to basically provide assurity to those hydrogen producers that they can sell hydrogen at the same price point of gas. All of a sudden that's letting people offtake that hydrogen, so they're displacing where they would use natural gas and they're going to use hydrogen Again predominantly industry.
Speaker 3:There might be some opportunities for transport, but I mean me electric vehicles I think are brilliant, I've got one. And me electric vehicles I think are brilliant, I've got one. And for a passenger vehicle, I think you know, is hydrogen fuel cell one there. Well, if you want instant refueling capability, once eventually the infrastructure builds out, yes, but they make a lot of sense. When you're talking about pulling freight transport trucks, you know trucks with heavy batteries don't make sense to me and they never will.
Speaker 2:Well, actually, thank you for opening up the space for my question, because what you have told right now, there is a business-wise part of this issue. There is the technology issue and there is the perception issue. Even if you solve the business and the technology issues, if you cannot solve the perception part, it is so hard for you to get ahead in a market from the competing energy sources or other source. So that brings me to my question, and it's a two part question. The first part is what do you think are the biggest challenges in public understanding of hydrogen? But also this is followed up by a rhetoric question Does the hydrogen industry need to do a better job of telling their story?
Speaker 3:Okay, absolutely, and I'm going to split that question into sort of three areas which I think. So let's start talking in the thing I touched on just before, which was the use case of hydrogen. You have to be clear. So industry has to be clear on what their use case for hydrogen will be today and what it might be in the future. So I still think industry will be the primary driver and then the public perception then really changes because we as a not just as a country, but really as a planet we talk about multiple colors of hydrogen, and you know the fact that there's almost like a hydrogen rainbow, so we talk about gray hydrogen, we talk about blue hydrogen, we talk about green hydrogen, we talk about pink, that there's almost like a hydrogen rainbow, so we talk about grey hydrogen.
Speaker 3:We talk about blue hydrogen. We talk about green hydrogen, we talk about pink hydrogen. There's turquoise hydrogen. So essentially let's talk about just three of those. Grey hydrogen is how we produce hydrogen already, so that's by reforming natural gas, which has CO2, but at the moment that CO2, we don't do anything with, so it has huge carbon emissions attached to it. Blue hydrogen is producing hydrogen in exactly the same way, but we're attempting to capture the co2 and then storing that in end-of-use oil and gas fuels. That is almost going to be a necessary element of the hydrogen value chain, because that allows you to scale to where you want to be in line with the targets that have been set by policymakers globally. So this isn't just a UK thing, it's not a Turkey problem. This is happening all over the world. Every single one of those 52 roadmaps that I've read and I've read most of them say that blue hydrogen.
