GoodGeist
A podcast on sustainability, hosted by Damla Özlüer and Steve Connor, brought to you by the DNS Network. Looking at sustainability issues, communications, and featuring global guests from a wide variety of sectors such as business, NGOs and government.
GoodGeist
It's Time to Walk the Talk, with Ana Gascón
In this episode we talk to Ana Gascón, Coca-Cola Europe’s Sustainability Manager for Packaging and the President of Spain’s association of ESG professionals.
With her roots in the banking sector and then her leap into consumer brands, Ana's perspective offers a unique blend of insider knowledge and strategic foresight, particularly in understanding the nuances of European ESG legislation and its ripple effects on global markets.
This episode also looks at the phenomenon of 'green hushing' as well as how European green regulations are setting global precedents, we also confront how the pressing climate and nature crises are reshaping markets and supply chains.
Finally with Ana we also look at creativity’s pivotal role in ESG communications as she Gascon emphasises the importance of compelling storytelling underpinned by verifiable data to build trust and engage consumers and employees alike.
Follow GoodGeist for more episodes on sustainability, communications and how creativity can help make the world a better place.
Good Geist, a podcast series on sustainability hosted by Damla Özler and Steve Connor, brought to you by the DNS Network.
Speaker 2:Hello, hello everyone, you are listening to Good Guys, the message on sustainability which is brought to you by the DNS Network, the global network agencies dedicated to making the world a better place. This is Damla from Mira Agency, istanbul, and.
Speaker 3:This is Steve from Creative Concern in Manchester. This podcast series explores global sustainability issues, how they're communicated and what creativity can do to make positive change happen.
Speaker 2:So in this episode we're going to talk to Ana Gascon, the Sustainability Manager for Packaging in Coca-Cola Europe and also President of the Spanish Association of ESG and Sustainability Professionals.
Speaker 3:So Anna's worked in corporate sustainability for consumer brands, I think, Anna as well as banking, and has been involved in things like Women in Sustainability with the World Business Council for Sustainable Development. So, Anna, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to Damna and myself.
Speaker 4:So, yeah, hi, hi, guys, thank you for inviting me and having this opportunity to share my thinking and my thoughts on ESG topics. And yes, I've done all of that. I've been working and I work today in Coca-Cola as you all know, this is a big beverage company and I've been working before in a bank, both roles and both positions related with sustainability, apart from many other things, because I'm old now I have the opportunity to do many other things, but anyway. So, yes, guys, I've got the experience of working in sustainability for a listed company and now in a very specific area of the world, in Europe, where sustainability landscape and framework from a legislative perspective is very, very demanding.
Speaker 4:So, yes, and then I've got this other hat on, which is my Dirse hat, president of Dirse. And this is very interesting as well because I get to know many other experiences in ESG from very different companies. All sectors are represented in this association now more than 100 companies participating in DIRSE, more than 800 people, 800 associates that represent the function from very different point of view, and this gives us a very good understanding on how sustainability is advancing in Spain. We also have quite a lot of relationships with the European network of these associations and, of course, the UK is represented Italy, france, greece, so, yes, plenty of people participating there as well.
Speaker 2:Well, wonderful Steve, don't you love it when our guests have that many hats and that many across the nations experience, so that it just gives me the chills?
Speaker 3:doesn't it to you? I think we could ask Anna any question at all, and she's going to answer.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's it Don't make it very difficult please, guys.
Speaker 2:Anna, thank you very much for being us today and it's great to have you so for our first question. You have all these hats and all these differences, both in the private sector business, and also the associations and the NGOs how this journey of you started and came to being as a sustainability journey being as a sustainability journey.
Speaker 4:Yes, this has a funny story behind. So when I was very small well, not that small, but I was smaller than today I was watching in the TV this video that you might recall on we Are the World Remember the song? So plenty of singers got together to solve a specific problem that was, at the time, famine in Africa. And I saw that I was little, I was around 12 or something and I thought I want to be part of that. I was already 12, but I thought like I want to be part of creating a positive impact in the place where I live. In that moment it was Spain. I'm based in Spain right now.
Speaker 4:So, yes, this was like the call, my wow moment, my aha moment, as you English people say. So then I decided to go and study something that really made me feel that I was going to contribute in the future. Right, so I studied political sciences. After that I got specialized in European Union Studies and all of this background gave me, I think, a very good like yes background again to understand the socioeconomic, sociopolitical environment, all of the situation from a historical perspective, demographic perspective, geographical perspective as well. So this I mean at the time, of course, when I studied in the university, esg topics were not there at all. Sustainability was something that was not even created and people didn't talk about it, but it already gave me like quite a lot of experience in that end.
Speaker 4:After that I started working in other places but, of course, when sustainability appeared in the landscape of the companies, I was already aware of plenty of legislation that was published in the European Union and in local level as well, and started to get specialized in that area plenty of legislation that was published in the European Union and in local level as well, and started to get specialized in that area.
Speaker 4:And I was very, very lucky because at the time I was not working in that sustainability area at the bank where I worked, in Banco Popular, but I got the opportunity to enter the area and I took it and I was working there for nine years. The last three years I was the director of that area, and then I moved into Coca-Cola taking charge of the sustainability strategy for Spain and Portugal, and now I'm in a new role taking care of just one part of the strategy that is critical for the future and for our environmental impact, which is packaging, and I take care of that for 40 countries in Europe. So, as you see, a roadmap towards sustainability that started a long time ago. I'm happy to have this role now in my company, in the Coacola company.
Speaker 3:So, anna, it's a great journey. I remember that video as well. I think we, I think we've partly been on the same journey, you and I. Yeah, well, certainly, probably about the same age as well, but let's not talk about age. So, as the president, so corporate sustainability, csr, esg, we can call it whatever we want, we can call it whatever we sort of stuff. What's really defining that space in spain at the moment?
Speaker 4:so this is a very good question that comes in a very good moment because just yesterday we presented with ey, the, what we call the barometer of sustainability, and this is a very good study that covers like the main topics from a materiality perspective for Spanish companies, and 257 professionals of the sector have actually answered this study and we have put together all of the results this study and we have put together all of the results. So the main things that we are seeing popping up, like in the board discussions, in sustainability committees, et cetera, are basically governance issues. Why? Because, of course, the legislation is pushing us directly into that road. Because, of course, directly into that road? Because, of course, many of the companies that are now operating in Spain have to reestablish their governance model in order to be able to respond to the CSRD and all of the challenges that are coming in that end. Also, the due diligence directive that will be coming shortly will have to be answered.
Speaker 4:So governance is very, very, very important. Transparency and accountability of ESG data is getting critical every day because it's not only used for reporting but also for communication to consumers. So we better be very reliant, very confident, of what we are saying externally and also we are seeing an increase in the social dimension of things, right? So it's not and I wouldn't say because yesterday we had a roundtable or so and we are commenting about this so does this mean that climate change and environmental impact is getting less attention from the companies? I wouldn't say that.
Speaker 4:I would say that climate change, everything that has to do with eco efficiency, has been already tackled before by companies. This creates great economic efficiencies and the ROI, the return of investment, of these kind of actions is seen very clearly by companies. But then, now that companies have been doing their homework already in the environmental landscape, they are moving little by little to the employment part and the human capital. Pointed out that governance is absolutely critical, because now it's more about responding to this CSRD and this is not only a directive that is telling you what to report, but how to manage your companies in a certain way. So it's about adapting your governance, but also, little by little, the social dimension is gaining more importance, although climate topics are going to be critical still.
Speaker 2:Wow, that was a great framework and it also laid down some basement for my next question. So, hannah, it seems that we are going to a tipping point for the business also, and, even though it's not enough, in some ways things are moving very fast in Europe. So how is EU legislation, particularly on greenwashing, affecting some of the people and brands in your Spanish network? How does it go affecting some of the people and brands in your Spanish network?
Speaker 4:How does it go? So I wouldn't say it's affecting only Spanish brands. I think that they are affecting all kinds of brands, all kinds of companies, but it's actually one of the hot topics of the year. Why? Because it's going to change dramatically the way we are communicating around ESG topics, and in a certain way, it's a positive thing, because we really believe that companies have to be much more accountable on what we are communicating.
Speaker 4:Greenwashing is by no means acceptable in any way, because it creates confusion among consumers, and that is the one thing that we don't want to create. However, however, the European legislator should take into account that not everyone has the muscle let's put it that way to face the compliance costs that this legislation is putting on top of their table, because sometimes, in order to be able to communicate ESG topics that before were very easy to communicate, we have to validate this externally with some kind of independent body, and this is a cost that maybe for smaller companies it's not going to be affordable. And then, if the bigger companies consider that these costs are affordable and of course we will be advancing in that direction still then we have to take into account that the processes are going to be so long in order to validate, because it's not only that we take into account what we have to communicate, how no, what we can communicate and how we can communicate it, but also the process behind it. And you know that in these kind of areas, companies have to be very agile to be able to communicate in social media in different channels. That sometimes, if you have to validate every single little detail, every single data that you're going to be communicating, we can enter a very complicated situation, which is the green hashing.
Speaker 4:And the green hashing is when people stop communicating about this and this is not a recommendable situation. Why? Because many of us, like the people in this call, certainly will be very used to ESG data, but many parts of the population is only in contact with the impact that environmentally or socially, brands are creating due to brands communicating. If brands stop communicating this, we are losing that part of the legislation in that sense, but we do, uh, foster and support an increase in accountability of everything that brands and company communicate. So it's uh, it's a 50 50 kind of situation I think that's fascinating.
Speaker 3:I'd never, I don't think I've ever heard that that what we say in english is is a terrible English word conundrum. So that's a challenge.
Speaker 3:Because I think, on the one hand, corporate narratives on sustainability do help to normalize sustainable behaviors and sustainable choices.
Speaker 3:They help with the sensibilization, as you describe it, anna, sustainable choices. They help with the sensibilization as you describe it, anna, um, but if, if they feel that they are taking a risk by developing that narrative, that they may be attacked, um, even as others are green hushing everywhere else and trying to stay silent. It's a fascinating one, um, I, and I wondered what listening to you talk about EU legislation does make me think about one question I wanted to ask you, which is for some of the projects that we work on, which are global projects, we look at the role of the European marketplace and legislation in that European marketplace and whether, by having some quite pioneering legislation, yes, around greenwashing, but also around things like deforestation and supply chains around electronic waste the European Union have very interesting legislation there. Do you feel, because you have a sense of these global brands working, this space, is the European market helping to shift global trends? Are we helping to change things? Because you're not going to create two ad campaigns, one for the European marketplace and one for North America, are you?
Speaker 4:You're totally right of the trends that we are seeing, not only in my sector but also in other kind of activities, are changing europe and the rest of the world. That is already happening in reporting. So, guys, if you have a company that have some kind of impact or some kind of activity in europe, you know that your est reporting is absolutely compulsory and therefore you better prepare your maybe headquarters in, I don't know, in USA, in Canada, wherever, and you have to let them know, guys, we have to report in this way. So what is going to happen is that all of the standards, also from other places in the world, are going to be aligning and, at the end of the day, because of the standards of the European Union that are going to have like a spillover or even a coordinated approach with other frameworks, we are all going to be reporting at the same way.
Speaker 4:But this started here in Europe. So, yes, that is one of the first impacts. But secondly, in terms of operations, this is also happening because, for example, I've got plenty of conversations with my Turkish colleagues around collection, for example, the collection systems that we have right now in in Europe that are main. We've got 16 operating DRS systems, deposit return systems that are going to be exported and they're going to be expanded in Europe, but they are going to be exported elsewhere and we've got plenty of conversations also with the USA and with Canada and with LATAM.
Speaker 4:So, yes, this is happening. And this is happening because we've got, for example, in Europe, a legislation that obliges us as a sector, for the beverage companies, to collect 90% of the PET that we're putting in the market by 2029. System is not only solving the problem of waste, but it's also solving one problem that for us is critical, that is, the reintroduction of that feedstock into our bottles again. So this is again solving another environmental impact that we are creating in the markets and therefore this is taken from Europe as a good practice and being exported elsewhere. So, yes, sometimes the legislation in Europe is already fostering operational changes, not only in Europe but elsewhere. Yes, certainly.
Speaker 2:I'm so happy that you also mentioned operations, because, besides the campaigning and the reporting and everything, operations are also. Operations is the key here, and international operations. Transformation is a very hot topic, especially if we're talking about the esgs, and thank you very much for doing that. So I have a question related to this also. We are now at the point where the climate and nature crisis globally are disturbing markets and supply chains as much as the transformation of the operations also, so these are no longer actually abstract or longer term threads for brands, but something we have now. The impact is now. So do you agree on that and how do you see that impact and how do you see the future steps of this impact?
Speaker 4:Totally, that is very tangible and we see it every day because, for example, here in Spain, we're having problems not only with water so water is already very scarce and a very valuable resource all over our territories but in places near Barcelona's region, they already have limitations in the consumption of water. So imagine, and we are only in February, march or something like that. So I mean, like this, we are in March, but these limitations started in February already. So imagine what can happen in July, august in that region. No, or we have huge increases in the prices of olive oil, which is like basic ingredient for any Spanish people, and this is not only impacting us as consumers, but it's impacting one of the biggest industries that we have in Spain, which is the Horeca Channel. So restaurants, bars, et cetera, are going to be increasing their prices too.
Speaker 4:So, yes, I mean, like everything that has to do with climate change, environmental degradation has huge impacts, not only in the supply chain but in everyday life. I mean, floods are more and more frequent in Central and Northern Europe and those are creating huge distractions of infrastructures, of production lines, of many other things. So, yes, I'm always surprised when people say we have to face climate change because in the future, no, no, no. In the future, no. Already today, already today, guys, we have to face climate change, because today already we are facing very high temperatures, like yesterday. I was in a meeting in the middle of Madrid. I took my coat, because I took it already at nine and it was 25 degrees in the afternoon, so very, very crazy. And so we really have to face this as a reality. That has to have an urgent response from everybody Governments, but companies have to be the first in the line of the responsibility, because the impact and the changes that companies can make in this sense is absolutely huge.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely, and I think, in fact, I think this year last year was there were many shocks and many impacts to supply chains last year, but I think this year will be just as bad. I don't know about around you, but here in the UK we've had the wettest February ever and all of the agricultural areas are flooded. People have lost entire crops. Areas are flooded and people have lost entire crops. There's discussions around whether some of the core staple crops, like wheat and potato, we're going to have a real crisis at harvest time later this year because all the crops have been destroyed. So I I think we are definitely in climate change, not facing climate change unfortunately yeah, exactly, I've got it.
Speaker 3:Um, so, but to bring it back to, let's go to a happy place for a moment, yes, because I'd like to. I'd like to ask you about something, I guess, maybe optimistic around all of this, which is you. You can see a situation where sometimes ESG and corporate reporting can be seen as a little bit maybe a little bit boring and a little bit sort of functional. But there are brands and companies that actually do communications in that space really well, bring it to life, use loads of creativity. So what's your view particularly for Dersi, but also obviously for Coca-Cola around how we can bring creativity and communications into ESG and really bring it to life for people?
Speaker 4:So I believe that the ESG topics interest a lot of consumers and more and more they are interesting them more and more every day. So we've got a percentage of our population that is more eco-active every day. Therefore, they receive these messages very, very well and they are also impacting their way of consumption. So it is not only an opportunity for us to show what we are doing, but it is a must, because consumers are going to take purchase decision in relation to the things that we are communicating. That is why we cannot stop communicating, because we have to show some of the brands have to show that we are actually producing in a responsible way or in the most sustainable way possible. So it is certainly an opportunity. I think that if ESG communication is done properly, it can be taken as an opportunity to create trust and some kind of special link with your consumers. So I totally believe that it is a way of attracting consumers and it is also a way of attracting employees, because more and more young people are willing to work for those brands that have some kind of commitment, where the purpose of the brand is very clear, where they know what they are working for, apart from the specific part in which they will be acting. So I believe that it's also very important for, for example, stakeholder management. So when you approach, for example, an NGO that might not like very much what you're doing, when you go back with I mean, when you go to that conversation with a good and very clear roadmap of where you are today, where you want to be in the future, how you have been communicating and being more and more accountable, more and more transparent around these things, I think the conversation changes.
Speaker 4:So I think it can create better relationships with consumers, better relationships with your employees. It could help you mitigate some kind of risks that you might have with certain employees. It could help you mitigate some kind of risks that you might have with certain stakeholders, defend your position towards government in another way and, in general, create a better reputation. So I would never abandon ESG communication. The only thing is that you have to do it in a clear way. You have to be very, very sure of what you are communicating, how to demonstrate that that data has a certain traceability and, specifically, what I always recommend is an independent body has to say that what you are saying is true, because just communicating and publishing something in a very colorful way in an ESG report is not enough. You have to have independent bodies saying like yes, what this brand is saying is total truth.
Speaker 2:So what you're saying is basically be sure that you can back your words. That's right.
Speaker 4:That's right. And then another really important thing that I love this expression. We don't have it in Spanish, but you English guys have it. Walk the talk, I think it's very so. When you say something in your ELT report, then please make sure that your data is reflecting that, because, if not, it creates such an incoherent situation that you leave a very broad space for other people to attack you. So when you do some kind of claim, when you have some kind of target, please make sure that your data is supporting that. And if it is not supporting that, for whatever reason, be transparent and be honest towards why you are not complying with what you have said. But those two things, as you said, are critical.
Speaker 2:Brilliant, brilliant. So I want to speak like hours with you, but the time is limited. So final question Our network is ironically called Do Not Smile, because we need to make sustainability a subject that brings happiness into the world. So what object, object, place or person always makes you smile?
Speaker 4:I would say my children. It's always fun to be around them and they are still small 15 and 12. So my two little girls are still making me laugh, and hopefully for a long time oh, they sound wonderful, anna.
Speaker 3:Well, um, it's. It's been absolutely brilliant talking to you and and getting that they well your perspectives from Coca-Cola, but also from that amazing network you have in Spain, and um, and all of our discussion around um truth and green hushing. I'm glad that came up because people don't talk about that enough. So it's been absolutely wonderful talking to you, anna. Thank you so much.
Speaker 4:Thank you and thanks for your time. It's been a pleasure collaborating with you and I really really enjoy your name Do Not Smile Network. I think that is brilliant and it actually made me smile.
Speaker 2:Thank you, anna. So also thanks to everyone who has listened to our Good Geist podcast, brought to you by the Do Not Smile network of agencies.
Speaker 3:And make sure you listen to future episodes, where we'll be talking to more amazing people about how we can work together to create a more sustainable future. So, Anna Damla, see you soon See you.
Speaker 1:Good Geist, a podcast series on sustainability Hosted by Damla Özler and Steve Connor, brought to you by the DNS Network.
